JESSE HOUWING is a trainer, coach, and tinkerer who likes to make software development fun. Jesse and I met (in person) at the nlscrum Meetup in Amsterdam where I asked him about remote pairing and mobbing. In this episode, he talks about the benefits and challenges of pairing and mobbing remotely and highlights the importance of having the right attitude and tools to make it work well. (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessehouwing)
Jesse’s tips for working remotely:
- When you work on something as a “whole”, everyone contributes and everyone is present so we no longer depend on just one person. If there’s an issue with a certain topic, anyone on the team can step up and resolve it.
- Have a conversation about what you’re trying to achieve rather than just critiquing the thing you’re being presented with.
- Having a great infrastructure setup, i.e. excellent audio–headphones, quiet background, great microphone–and great video in order to pick up on people’s facial cues, is essential.
- Pairing is a learning opportunity. You work with someone to improve HOW you do things, e.g. keyboard shortcuts, different tools, websites, etc…and not just for the end result,
- Have a standard of how your team does things in order to avoid conflict.
Podcast production by Podcast Monster
Graphic design by Alfred Boland
Lisette: Great, and we’re live. So welcome everybody to this remote interview. My name is Lisette, and I’m interviewing people and companies doing great things remotely. And today I have a little something different for everybody. I have on the line, Jesse Houwing, Jesse, you’re a trainer, coach, and Tinker, meaning you like to experiment with a lot of things. You’re based in the Netherlands. And I met you at the NL Scrum meetup in person and we got to talking about pairing and mobbing. And so we’re going to dive into that today. So welcome. And I want to ask the first question, which is, what does your virtual office look like? What do you need to get your work done?
Jesse Houwing: So that is a really interesting question because I don’t really have a fixed place and I drag a lot of stuff with me. So I’ve got a bag with my laptop and a separate keyboard and my favorite mouse and my back usually kills me so I’ve got a laptop stand which helps and I prefer to sit and stand once in a while, so a client that I recently worked with I actually took their desk and I’ve shoved 12 of those big 500 page stacks of paper under the, under the feet to transform my desk into a standing desk. It wasn’t a sit-stand desk. So sitting and standing meant relocating to a different desk. But yeah, so the trunk of my car is full with all kinds of stuff.
Lisette: All right, and why are you moving around so much? What does your, what is your work setup look like?
Jesse Houwing: Yes, I coach and I train people. So when I’m delivering a closet of it either in our own office or at a client’s office. When I coach people, it just really helps to just see people you want to observe people kind of in their natural habitat. And well…
Lisette: But either you’re saying that with the background [Inaudible 04:47] those people are not speaking anything right now go to the YouTube or go to the notes page on the show, and you’ll see the big gorilla behind Jesse. For those of you listening
Jesse Houwing: Yep, yep, yep. So it’s just. it’s kind of different to put a camera into somebody’s office and being able to constantly observed him from a remote place. That just doesn’t really feel right. So when I’m coaching or helping clients on-site, and that’s usually where I am. So I just usually take all my stuff with me. I’ve got a nice car and the trunk is just full of everything I did. Whenever we go and do something in the weekend, I just have to unload the whole car and then get the weekend stuff into it. That’s kind of how I roll.
Lisette: Okay, and so and then you also mentioned that you’re sort of remote by invitation. So you work with a number of different clients, and then they can get a hold of you, wherever you are, but you’d like to coach in person is what I understand.
Jesse Houwing: Right? Yeah. And usually when they have a problem is when I’m not there. So then I can either get to the car and help them or we just, can you join me and then we’ll do a screen share session or In in some other way, let’s try to get to content. Yeah.
Lisette: Okay. Okay. So I know you because of the NL Scrum meetup like I mentioned and so and I know you do a lot of Agile coaching and Scrum training. And not everybody from this audience really knows what agile and Scrum is, but they’ve listened probably to enough podcast to know the basics of that. Now you and I got into a conversation at this meetup talking about pairing and mobbing because I had written about it in my book that some people find it more comfortable to pair together remotely rather than actually together. And so, and somebody tweeted back at me that they were completely surprised by this statement, and I thought, okay, maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about. And I thought I’m going to ask somebody about it. And I asked you, and it turns out, I’m not necessarily on crack. But let’s, let’s step back. A little bit on crack. It depends on the situation. But let’s step back a bit and first, can you just tell us more about what pairing and mobbing is exactly,
Jesse Houwing: Sure, so let’s start with pairing which is basically this this simpler form of mobbing. And with bearing is just two people working together behind the same computer on a single task at the same time. And there’s different setups repairing there, what’s called a strong style pairing or kind of more loose, and a strong cell pairing. And it says that the person that has the keyboard is executing the actions is doing the work, but the person that not has the keyboard is telling the other person what to do, what they expect, how they would like to have it done. And in that setup, it’s kind of the person doing the talking can’t actually do the action. So you have to explain the other person well enough what it is that you’re trying to do, why you’re trying to do it and have a conversation around it. And that kind of really helps to make sure that you are just not doing it by yourself. A lot of people experience pairing with a very well experienced person and then it’s just looking along over their shoulder to see them do great stuff. And that’s basically what you’re trying to prevent. So, in that setup, it kind of because you have the conversation, the other person really understands what’s going on. You make sure that the thing that you’re trying to do is well understood.
Jesse Houwing: When you upgrade it to mobbing it’s basically the same but then you have multiple people telling one person what to do.
Lisette: Oh, that sounds, that sounds overwhelming.
Jesse Houwing: Yeah, yeah, it can be so usually there is kind of a role separation between two groups. So you have the person doing the work it was called the driver and then you’ve got the other people that are called the mob. And usually, there’s a navigator just like in a rally races setting go left, go right. Turn in order as a there’s a hill coming up and there’s a big hole right behind it and kind of guiding the driver along. And then the rest of the mob is looking around trying to figure out where the competitors are. And this is kind of looking at different, different opportunities for the navigator to go into. And then you could do more programming, which is than just coding. But you could also do mob testing or pair testing, or you could, after the developer is ready, they can pair up with the tester and then show this is what I did. This is how it’s working, and then test it together and tested and find issues that can solve them on the spot and just continue right after.
Lisette: Okay, so why is this better than somebody sitting alone and coding, why is it better to have somebody driving?
Jesse Houwing: Well, normally in many teams, you see that there’s this this process was called a code review. So somebody just worked on their own and then they finished something and it’s working really well and then they asked for reviews. Just to make sure that they didn’t do anything stupid. And what you do then is that you ask a review of the end result. And if you working with somebody to create it, and that person is constantly giving you feedback on what you’re doing, then you’re not just critiquing the end result. But the process of how you got there, you’re figuring out better ways. You’re asking about alternatives. So you have the conversation about the process towards what you’re trying to achieve instead of then you’re critiquing the thing that you’re being presented with. So you can optimize your opportunities for feedback. And by optimizing your opportunities for feedback, hopefully, you’ll get a better a better end result and with the benefit that the other person knows exactly what you did. So if there’s if there’s a production issue or anything else, then the person next to us just as likely to be able to support that problem as you are so can also remove that, that strong dependency Oh, that’s John’s code. So if there’s an issue, we must have John, because john works with beaten, Pete will work with Katrina and then going to have been sharing that knowledge. And when you then step up to mobbing, it’s not just two people working on it. But it’s the whole team working on that one topic at the same time. So everybody contributed, everybody was present, everybody knows what’s going on. So usually when there was an issue, anybody on the team can actually help out to resolve that
Lisette: Sounds like a great benefit. And we were talking before the interview started about how this doesn’t apply just to the programming world, that it is also a, you know, it has a wider application. And I had the giving you the example that my friend Gretchen and I wrote a book together using Google Docs. And I’d be in you know when we were in the writing phase, I would be the one like talking off the top of my head because I had the knowledge and she was then taking the information and just typing it into a Google Doc. And then later, she and I would go both go through the text and add formatting and add stuff like as you know, together at the same time, which was a great thing in Google Docs. So it’s not just, it’s not just relegated to the programming world, but it does have broader applications. And, of course, you can mob or pair on lots of things, especially if you’re using an online tool.
Jesse Houwing: It’s really interesting to see how much faster you could iterate on things. A couple of months ago, we traveled towards the other side of the country and our country is small you know it because you live here as well.
Lisette: A bike across yeah.
Jesse Houwing: Biking across will take you a whole day but we were going to the birthday party with my grandfather and we wanted to create a song for that. And normally that’s something that would that that process starts weeks and it funds but this time it didn’t. So in the car on our way there. We contacted all the other nieces and nephews. But we wanted to do with song and we forgot about it. And we kind of co-wrote the song we chose that we chose the melody and then we co-wrote the song in the car with kind of everybody on the, the in the passenger seat, live editing and then the thing is you don’t have to make any agreements on which part is being done by whom and what it has to rhyme with what and everybody was doing live at it. And so you could see those eight little cursor is kind of going around the screen all at the same time. And within the hour, we had everything done. And normally this is a process that takes weeks.
Jesse Houwing: It was really efficient. That was really cool to see. Yeah,
Lisette: Yeah, great, a great use case to that, that is also not to do with programming or, or development. So normally people do this though side by side. If you’re pairing you’re usually sitting there’s one computer like you said, and somebody is driving and the other person is directing and then with mobbing. You actually have multiple people. Usually, they’re sharing like a big screen. I just maybe paint us a picture for what mobbing looks like in the same room and then let’s talk about remote and the benefits and challenges of this remote.
Jesse Houwing: Right. So what we normally see is like to 50 or 80 inch screens and a very powerful computer. Multiple keyboards on the desk because some people want to have economic keyboards and other people have crazy keyboard shortcuts. So usually, people might have the wrong keyboards on the desk and, and a number of seats for people to sit behind. Maybe also a few laptops. So when there’s kind of a research question, you want to look something up, then somebody can do that kind of wild, the rest is continuing onwards. And that’s basically the team setup. Have a whiteboard next to a piece of paper on the table, a couple of whiteboard markers present. So it’s really a very collaborative space. And think about it if normally you would have a team with eight people, you would have a very expensive laptop because all of them have to be able to run the code and work on it and that kind of stuff. Now, if you give all of those people a very lightweight laptop because it’s only used for research and you pull all of that money into a very, very powerful workstation, then the editing experience almost two very, very big screen is the kind of the most fluent and efficient editing experience that you can think of. So it’s kind of there’s some interesting benefits towards that as well.
Jesse Houwing: That’s kind of what that setup looks like, if you really want to see it, there’s a movie by Woody’s all who was, was one of the leading people in this in this in this space that shows a couple of those kinds of setups and what that looks like and what a day in a mob looks like. So if you were looking for inspiration, and that’s really something suppose that we can include it in the in the show notes.
Lisette: Oh, for sure. And all the links that you sent to me on LinkedIn, I still have those and I’ll be including those in the show notes too. They were very, very useful in terms of just wrapping your head around this. Okay, so now, we kind of have a visual of what it looks like in person, which sounds awesome. It sounds like a great collaborative experience. I can also envision like bowls of chips and maybe some snacks and you know, things like that, maybe I don’t know, I would have snacks…
Jesse Houwing: Yeah, coffee machine.
Lisette: But now taking it remotely, what does that look like if you’re doing pairing or mopping.
Jesse Houwing: Yeah, so basically sort of the same, but it’s now multiple people sharing the same editor experience. So you’re all looking at the same document at the same time. You want to be able to hear each other at the same time. You probably want to be able to see each other at the same time. Because you might see that somebody is frowning and then ask, so what’s your opinion about that? Or is there anything that I should be that should I should be worried about? So basically, you want to have all of that open, you want to have to share desktop with the, with the editor, you want to have a video screen on and you want to have a good audio connection and then basically, it’s just some sitting behind a computer, one person talking and the other person typing in a mob situation just be the same, but just with more screens.
Lisette: Okay, so to me it sounds like there’s some real benefits like there’s a, there can be a comfort benefit to the remote aspect. I mean, you’re in your own home, or wherever you might be, you know, let’s, let’s assume you’re in your own home, you know, you’ve got your own chair, you’ve got a quiet environment, you’ve got your cat or a dog or you know, whatever it is. So it sounds like why would you? What are the benefits of doing it remotely over in person?
Jesse Houwing: Well, the benefits that you mentioned kind of are kind of already in there. And then in my case, it would be I get a call from the client, can you jump on this call and help us out? If I’d say sure, I’ll be there in an hour. That’s, that’s one hour driving to Lawton and it takes me an hour to get back or it’s two minutes to actually get me into that setup. So there’s kind of a lot of timesaving stairs. Well, indeed, you could workaround. You could beat traffic and work around that a little bit. And you get some crazy things with people that have very peculiar setups, like, I’ve got a crazy keyboard with weird keyboard bindings, and, and this is just how I work. And then you don’t have to drag that along to slide everywhere, because that’s just the stuff that you have there. You’ve got some pretty peculiar programmers out there. We are in the business of automating things. So if you can save keystrokes by completely automating your keyboard, then there are people who actually do that.
Lisette: Oh, yeah, I can imagine the efficiency actually. I mean, it’s, and it makes sense. It makes sense. And yeah, that’s the way your brains are wired and I wish I had more of that. If you saw the way I did some of these some of my things people I’ve made a lot of people laugh. I’ve used a lot of people. So then why are there you know, there’s kind of a group that are opposed to doing this remotely and I got a bit of kickback on Twitter from some folks after reading my book saying like, I don’t understand, like, why would you want to do this remotely? And to me, it just seemed like, why wouldn’t you do it remotely? I mean, you could get whoever, you know, programmers from all over the world, you’re in the comfort of your own wherever you are. You know, it seems like a, seems like a no brainer to do it remotely. So what, what are the why wouldn’t you do it? What are the challenges or the Why are people kicking back?
Jesse Houwing: [16:23]Well, I think if you go back a little bit, and not everybody here, not everybody around the world has the same kind of stable internet connection that we have. In the Netherlands, most people nowadays that can afford to have fiber-optics into their home. So abroad that is no longer really an issue but in a lot of places, of course, it is. Now if you’re sharing this 4k screen resolution of preferably multiple screens, and a video link and want to have good audio then that that actually becomes quite a difficult setup to kind of maintain. You want to have good audio quality. So you’d have either a headset on your head all the time or you want to have a silent room that you can sit in, sort of because you have a microphone open. So it kind of puts some, some constraints on your setup. But, but the development of tooling and the bandwidth, the advantages that we have nowadays, a lot of those kinds of problems are kind of slowly dissolving.
Lisette: Yeah, depending on the country and where you’re working like Germany has a, surprisingly, bad internet, depending on where you are in Germany. I’m always surprised. I would think that they would get it right. But yeah, so it’s, it’s not just the countries that most people associated with that I hear India a lot. It depends on the of course, where you are in India, but the bandwidth in Argentina, I hear some things about Argentina, where the, you know, so it just depends on where you’re working from.
Jesse Houwing: And then when you think about it when people are working remotely or outsourcing work, then it’s very often two countries with where the cost is lower. But it also puts kind of some of the constraints on these kinds of things. So, maybe the machines are less powerful the bandwidth this is maybe the bandwidth is good, but the connection is flaky. And then if you’re battling that old day, then it becomes a very, very unproductive experience. And I can totally imagine that you want to sit together.
Lisette: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, it sounds super frustrating. So it sounds like really if you want to do pairing or mobbing, then infrastructure, having a great infrastructure set up is going to be key. You want to have excellent audio, so a silent background or a great microphone. And how important would you say is the video link? When you’re pairing and mobbing?
Jesse Houwing: Well, you want to see the other person because you want to know when to speak and when not to speak. So the problem with not seeing the other person is that you don’t know whether or not you’re interrupting their train of thought or whether or not they’re still typing, or maybe they’re pausing to think about something. And that’s not something that you can see from a blinking cursor. And that’s usually also not something that you can hear. So you probably have to work on some of the etiquettes of how you want to work together and that the other person will speak out that hold on, I need to think about this for a while and it is, alright continue and you can have just a little bit of that’s not something people are used to so probably, they want to kind of have to learn that. But there’s also some real advantages in a new tooling that’s coming about right now, where instead of sharing your whole screen, you’re just sharing the state of your editor across. So Visual Studio life shares a feature right now that kind of puts Google Doc right into the code editor. And you can have six of those same different color cursors. Going through different files at the same time, you can see which errors are popping up which tests are failing, and you can work together collaboratively in the same code base live, kind of on the on one person’s laptop, or on that very, very expensive workstation at sitting in the corner of your modeling room. Yeah. And then suddenly, a lot of the bandwidth problems going to go away. If you don’t have to share two 4k screens then you save a lot of bandwidth for Audio.
Lisette: Yeah, indeed, quite a lot. And I also saw on some of the links that you sent, there are people that they would have a separate device for the video. So they use those small iPads for the video connection, for example, and then use your they have your other real estate on the other external monitors for the codebase or whatever it is that you’re working on. So that also seems like a good setup.
Jesse Houwing: Yeah, then it functions it then you can if you connect your, your iPad to the guest network, or you use its LTE connection to, to connect to your mobile provider, then it doesn’t share the same, the same bandwidth link. And they won’t be competing for the same network for the same network bandwidth. And that kind of saves you a little bit as well. But just taking away all of the screen sharing bandwidth is probably the best idea.
Lisette: Right, right. Right.
Jesse Houwing: Yeah. And there’s some other benefits there as well as that. Since you’re in your own editor and you’re seeing the state. You get your key bindings, you get your own extensions, you get your own setup and the other person doesn’t have to know that you have a different set of it doesn’t even have to know you’re on a Mac or that you’re working on Linux or that you’re working on Windows because it kind of shares all across. So there’s, there’s, there’s actually some, some really interesting benefits on there as well. Everybody can work on the set that they want yet still collaborate in the same document.
Lisette: Okay, and what is your personal preference? If you were going to do pairing or mobbing? Do you prefer in-person or is remote also fine?
Jesse Houwing: I would probably want to start in person. Especially, usually when I would start with somebody that I don’t really know yet. So you, you want to get to know somebody really quickly, though, if you’re both really committed and the remote experience adds a little bit of frustration and you have room to express that then you probably learned you get to know each other even quicker than that and sitting together. It’s really interesting to think about how what is all phrases, this is that you are not really a team. If you Is it if you don’t know what the other person’s sweat smells like something along those lines, it’s like if you’re really, really working together on the same thing, and you’re really, really working on kind of cracking that difficult nut, then you probably know what the other person’s sweat smells like. And if you’re once you’re in that mode, I don’t think it matters if you’re remote or if you’re local or anything, but it’s much easier to get to that level. If you’re all in the same room, you’re able to lock that and then nobody leaves until we solve this problem.
Lisette: Right. And also going through something difficult together, solving a difficult challenge together really brings out the best and the worst and people you know, when people blow and you see when, yeah, maybe sometimes there’s some benefits to being remote. Shut the laptop and take a walk and blow some steam.
Jesse Houwing: Or the screen just went blank or just…
Lisette: Exactly. So Let’s see. So are you seeing then more and more and in terms of your experience at the offices that you coach at and that you work at? Are you seeing more of a trend towards people doing remote? Or is it still people really prefer in the office? Just in your personal experience? I would say,
Jesse Houwing: Yeah, I, it kind of comes from, from two angles, most of the teams that I see want to work together and they want to have a team room, they don’t want to have an open office, they want to have to run collaborative space, they want to have large whiteboards that don’t have to be wiped out at night at the end of the day because security says so they want to be able to leave some of your documents around because that’s the way that it makes sense to be in that place in that order. And that’s kind of their physical space and at the same time, those people are working with people remotely in different countries or from different vendors, and they want to have that experience as optimal as possible. So even though you see teams that are trying to work as best as possible in their own location, it still doesn’t mean that they’re not also working with people remotely and want to also optimize for that experience. So that’s usually what I see. I see very few people in this country where the whole team is working remotely and everybody’s kind of collaborating on their problem from wherever they are, then but I think it’s also because the country is relatively small. So here, it’s just because from where I live within an hour, I’m either at the South border or North border, the East eastern border, the western border of our country. So and then depending on traffic, of course. So for it for a lot of people, it’s not like the American consultant who has to fly in on Monday and then leaves on Friday and doesn’t have to see their family kind of all week. It’s a different kind of experience over here. So I don’t know how it is for other people around the world.
Lisette: Yeah, indeed, it’s the Netherlands has an interesting that it’s an interesting constraint or a not a constraint, the opposite of constraint really, in that it’s a small country, and it’s relatively easy to get anywhere. So if you were going to meet a client face to face time is all is usually preferable, because the drive really isn’t so long. Also, depending on the weather, today, we’re having like super cold weather, and there’s lots of traffic, reports of traffic accidents out there because of the ice on the road. So
Jesse Houwing: But it probably takes less time to just get there and have a talk in person and get Skype to work. So…
Lisette: Yeah, how much I love Skype. Anybody listening to this podcast will know there’s no love for Skype guide. So yeah, indeed, if you’re using Skype, you’re shooting yourself in the foot there. So we’re coming to the end of the time, man that went fast. I had so many questions, but I would like to just give an opportunity. Is there anything else that you’d want to add to, to about pairing or mobbing or…
Jesse Houwing: You know the interesting thing is that a lot of my clients, they say people should pair more. But I think it’s more. I hope that people wants to pair more. Because pairing is a very learning opportunity is a very big learning opportunity. You’re working with somebody to improve how you do things, and not just the end result of what you did. You’re learning from a [Inaudible 26:18] oh, I know a keyboard shortcut for that. Or you could, instead of using this tool, why not use that tool, and there is a command-line that you could actually use for this and have you ever used this website and all but I see a possible security thing here. And if you do it that way, then it will be different. And all of those kinds of things can be shared across your team on the spot immediately. And then kind of everybody learns from that. And many teams are kind of postponing that until code review. And then when they get under pressure, they skip that. So for teams that want to improve, how they work together, can work, have a standardized experience. This is how we do things, optimize the way they do things, these kinds of experiences of working together in pairs, and especially when you’re working in the mob, you’ll very, very quickly figure out kind of everything that you disagree on that nobody ever said. So in a training experience that was that’s what I see a lot when we just put people in, you have to deliver something in an hour and a half as a mob. And then this is the goal go do and then usually within half an hour, everybody is in conflict with everybody else.
Lisette: Oh, interesting. So that’s, that’s a standard scenario. When you’re doing trainings on mobbing.
Jesse Houwing: It’s something that in our Scrum training, sometimes if the team really has trouble collaborating, I kind of forced them to. And then usually they the couple of times that we tried, the first thing that they say is we hated this. And then we dive in a little bit deeper on so what do you hate about it? And it’s a well, she did something that was totally what I would not do. And then I told her and then she ignored me. It’s like, all right. So that’s interesting. So, how many times does that happen in your real life? Well, I don’t know. Because we don’t really talk about these kinds of things. Right? So Oh, that’s interesting. So and then, yeah, I want to use tabs and the other person wants to use spaces, which is kind of into programming world kind of this. What kind of white space do you use is something that very often comes up? So coding standards? How many white lines do how do you how do you layout your comments? Where do how big are your functions? What’s your naming standards, all those kinds of things, if teams that really have a standard about it, and everybody’s working alone, that they don’t really need to have a standard about it. But if you’re switching who’s behind the keyboard every 10 minutes, then you better have a standard. And if you don’t have one, then this…
Lisette: You are going to find one.
Jesse Houwing: Yeah. It’s a really interesting way of very, very quickly learning new things together as a team, and trying to figure out kind of where differences in experience and knowledge and other things are. So most teams that really adopt is they adopted from the perspective of we want to learn together. And because they want to learn together, they want to work together as often as possible. And mobbing is a very natural way of doing that. So instead of forcing people to work together to improve the quality of the code, for example, teams that want to learn a lot from each other, kind of naturally gravitate towards these kinds of working styles.
Lisette: Brilliant. And I really hope that the audience listening to this can also extrapolate out from, it doesn’t need to be programming. It can be anything, it can be Google Docs, it can be a spreadsheet, and it can be, yeah, so even if you’re not a programmer, I can see the wide applicability of this. And I often encourage people to I mean, when we’re working remotely, often people are working on their own and then we get together in some sort of meeting to discuss, but actually, we can easily collaborate online together and work together on projects. And that’s something that I’m hoping to see more and more and more of, for instance, I run a virtual co-working space where everybody’s just hanging out in their own separate rooms. And every once a while we get together in the coffee corner and then hang out, but we could easily be sitting together working on our own projects and asking for advice or, or talking through things that mean that would be a great thing. So indeed, your argument for why to do this at all is very powerful. So…
Jesse Houwing: Thank you.
Jesse Houwing: Yeah.
Lisette: So yeah, awesome. I hope people are inspired by this.
Jesse Houwing: But it’s, it’s usually a hard step for people because not a lot of people are accustomed to being critiqued about how they do things every second of their day. So it has to be open for continuous improvement.
Lisette: Right. So is it, maybe, first go take a training from Jesse so that you can work out all the things together with a facilitator and then [Crosstalk] you don’t end up virtually punching each other out.
Jesse Houwing: Or start experiencing this like an hour in the morning and then just do your thing as you normally do and then figure out if this is something that you like and if you like, just do more of it, and then maybe you’ll end up doing working together all day instead of just the first hour of today.
Lisette: So small steps and iterate. I think I’ve heard that somewhere before. Well, Jesse, thank you so much for your time today. I think it’s been totally awesome. You’re wonderful. I really appreciate it. And until next time, everybody. Be powerful.