LAURA FREW is a Partner at HolacracyOne, a company that promotes self-management practices for organizations. They are also 100% remote! I talk to Laura about how HolacracyOne works, their quarterly retreats, their non-management practices, hiring and firing people, and how they manage their time.


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Her tips for working remotely:

  • If you’re a new remote worker, figure out what you need to set yourself up for success. But remember, don’t be afraid of experimenting.
  • Flexibility can be both liberating and challenging. Having the freedom to create your own schedule is a wonderful thing. Somedays you may be able to enjoy your morning time, work a bit, do something else you like and then work some more. It’s really important to manage your time so you don’t suddenly find yourself overloaded.
  • Know your personality type. If you’re easily distracted by the things happening around you, make sure you create an environment that’s suitable for getting the deep work done.
  • Set Boundaries. Not everyone understands what remote work is and may think you’re not busy because you’re not in “the office”. In order to get the space and respect you need to get your work done, it may be necessary to create a physical barrier, such as a door, to let people know that you’re not available.


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Graphic design by Alfred Boland

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Original transcript


Lisette:  Great, and we’re live. So welcome everybody to this remote interview. My name is Lisette and I’m interviewing people and companies doing great things remotely. And today on the line, I have Laura Frew partner at HolacracyOne, that’s going to be interesting. We’ll definitely get into that you’re in the foothills of the Sierras and California. It’s a little chilly today as people are going to see on the video. Got the beautiful blue coat on. And so Laura, let’s start with what does your virtual office look like? What do you need to get your work done?

Laura Frew:  Good question. I mean, it varies. It really varies most of the time what I need to get my work done a laptop and internet connection and a quiet space.

Lisette:  Okay.

Laura Frew:  So my office currently it’s, I actually rent an office in like a local office building. And so for me, that’s perfect because I can leave my regular environment, close the door, make sure that nobody bothers me and then just do my thing.

Lisette:  And is it a single office? For its and office for one person, or is it more of a co-working space environment.

Laura Frew:  So it’s, I mean, so it’s traditionally like a series of office buildings here, but I like to use it as a co-working space. So I just kind of ask people if I can purge in their larger offices. And there’s another remote team that works out of here. And so most of the time, like they have only two employees in there, five, six-person office, so they let me like, hop in there and like work on one of the desks and work at one of the monitors. And then whenever I need to take calls, I can just pop into one of the empty offices.

Lisette:  Oh, that sounds ideal.

Laura Frew:  Great! I use it like a co-working space, even though most people actually have kind of full-time offices here.

Lisette:  What a great way to do it though, too. But so what a great way to network it’s as if it’s a co-working space and you know, it’s for them. It’s also nice when you’re around I’m sure otherwise they wouldn’t do it. So there’s a mutual benefit for using the space that way. I think it’s really creative. I haven’t heard that one before. I think and I think more people should look into that. It’s a, it’s a nice setup.

Laura Frew:   Yeah, it is actually. And they do. They appreciate having kind of this fresh perspective and new energy. And I was asking about what they’re doing and the projects. And so it’s kind of a fun cross-pollination.

Lisette:  Yeah. Yeah. My husband sometimes works at client offices. So he’ll, you know, it’s like, oh, hey, I’m going to be in your area for the day. Can I use your office from nine to one, and then he’ll just work in their office for a bit and also like a nice solution because they like having him there.

Laura Frew:  Right. Right. That’s what, I like that.

Lisette:  So we are, yeah, anyway, hotel lobbies, all those kinds of things. But let’s get into this. You are the partner at HolacracyOne. So, that’s a, and it’s a so it’s a virtual consulting company. You guys do self-management practices for organizations?

Laura Frew:  Yes.

Lisette:  Very broadly. I’ll let you describe it. So you’ve got a virtual consulting company. But before I think before we get into how you guys work, let’s talk about what it is that you do, because I think a lot of people have heard about Holacracy, but don’t maybe really might not know what it is. So let’s start there.

Laura Frew:  Sure. So Holacracy in essence, it’s a framework for self-management. So a lot of people have experimented with ways of self-managing, or maybe self-management can work if you’re on a small, small team of like three, four or five people. But once it starts to scale, it can get very chaotic and very hefty and very, like, it’s hard to kind of scale these types of things unless you have a very structured framework around it. So basically, what we’ve done is we’ve kind of taken the types of work that a manager would traditionally do, and created a system and processes for getting that work done. So an example might be like, well what does the manager often do? They might prioritize work, they might help allocate resources, they might help clarify expectations, clarify who’s accountable for what, who makes what decisions. And so what we’ve kind of done is we’ve figured out, we’ve just created processes for all of these things that aren’t dependent on one single person. So you might have the best person for the job doing one aspect of that resource allocation, for example, you might have another person doing. I mean, maybe hiring and firing the company or something like that. And so basically, we’re taking these things that managers traditionally do, we’re breaking them down chunks, and giving the most qualified person, the authority to work on that piece of there was qualified for.

Lisette:  So then does this just get rid of managers?

Laura Frew:  Yes, that’s exactly what it does. It replaces managers with the process that everybody can participate in, and then flattens the hierarchy, I assume because everybody’s got different decision-making capabilities based on our own needs. And yeah, and…it flattens the hierarchy. People, like you, won’t have one person with decision making power over another person necessarily, but it’s there’s still within the structure a hierarchy of roles. People can fill different roles. And so it’s interesting because maybe in one circle, I am like the team lead and have decision making authority over another role. But then in another circle, they actually have that type of that exact same type of decision making authority over me. It distinguishes the person from the actual role. And so there is a hierarchy of roles, which, you know, really, but then it takes the person part away from that if that makes sense.

Lisette:  Yeah, totally makes sense. I really love it. Okay, we could dive really deeply into this. That’s not what this podcast is about. We want to talk about how you guys are working. So are you doing this super modern, really interesting self-management practices, but you guys are a virtual consulting company with about 20 people all working remotely, you don’t have an office?  So, describe that and maybe describe your team to us and a little bit about how you guys work and we’ll dive into some of the challenges after that.

Laura Frew:  Sure. So we’re 21 people. Um, we are all remote most of the time most of us are in the US, but not all of us are in the US. And slack is our lifeline. So we get most of our work done via slack. Most conversations happen in public channels on slack. So everything is all kinds of important decisions are documented and searchable in slack. We use [Inaudible 06:43] a lot also, for connecting with each other for meetings, and for client meetings. And then occasionally we use email. Sometimes if we need something very urgent we’ll do we’ll talk by text. Some people are open to that some people are like, don’t text me and so we won’t but, um, so that’s kind of how we roll. So we’re, we’re remote for most of the time. And then we also meet up quarterly for a week of in-person co-working. Oh, wow. And that I would say is what makes this whole thing work, really and keeps us kind of together on the same page as a team.

Lisette:  So how does this in-person co-working meeting meet? Is it the same place every time? Is it different places? How do you organize this?

Laura Frew:   Good question. So about he was five years ago, we bought a house in rural Pennsylvania near where maybe there were four or five other partners also living in that area. So we want to put the house in that same area and so this is like a five-bedroom house and then we kind of rent structures nearby me and we fly everybody out there to the same place and basically, it’s kind of like feast or famine. It’s almost like famine it’s like you’re totally remote. And suddenly we all come together and we’re like, not only working together, living together making coffee together like going to the gym together.

Lisette: Right, right. That’s a…an intense experience I can imagine and, and a week is a relatively long period of time. So why how did a week get chosen?

Laura Frew:   I think because people are flying from, kind of all over the country, and it takes, you know, there’s jet lag, it takes a couple of days to adjust. And because there are so many of us on one level, it’s not like we’re structuring the time, from nine to five your book, hour, an hour, an hour. So it’s kind of people often continue to work in their same normal way of, you know, each person has their own rhythms we find times to connect, we find times to meet we also, you know, find time to like take downtime. So it just sort of seems to be the level of time that made sense for the organization. Uh-huh. In order to allow people to like get over their travel issues, and get over jetlag, and kind of plan all the activities that we wanted to plan into all of that time.

Lisette:  Yeah.

Laura Frew:  It was like an all kind of like an all-hands partner meeting, and then we’ll end with one of those also. And then in between our various, like, maybe various circles will meet for their tactical meetings, or we’ll do a lot of in-person kind of strategic stuff. Whatever is kind of up,

Lisette:  Right, right, dealing with issues at hand at least because, for three months of planning, that’s a pretty, I mean, you know, three months of planning a weeks of time is totally plenty of it’s a good amount of time to plant the following three months, for example, like six months is a little long. A year is definitely like so I can totally see it. I love the idea of co-working together. So, does anybody live in the house when, when it’s not being used as like the retreat house?

Laura Frew:  Good question. Um, there were periods of time when people did live there. So for most of the time that we’ve had it actually like people like maybe one or two people who live there. At this point in time, nobody’s living there. There’s one person that’s coming there during the day to work. And then, because we have this kind of asset available, people oftentimes come to retreats a couple of days early to adjust or get over, get over jetlag, or kind of just continue to go work.

Lisette:  Uh-huh. I love the idea. It takes a special kind of team also, I mean, I’m sure you develop them seriously strong bonds from working together that way.

Laura Frew:  Yeah, it’s interesting. It’s true. It’s true. Like there’s a lot of kind of, yeah, deep friendships I would say that are that arise just from that type of contact.

Lisette:  Right. And the experience of working in this way also is a kind of bonding because not a lot of people work in this way. I that I know of. There’s a lot of companies, a lot of jealous People from other companies like, Wow, that sounds great. You know, like, what a note what a great adventure.

Laura Frew:  Yeah.

Lisette:  Okay, so I want to go back through and talk a little bit about the tools that you use. So slack, you said is your lifeline, and I hear that from a lot of companies. How do you guys manage to sort of the bombardment, you know, like slack is a lifeline? And it’s also a huge amount of messages. I know I could sit in front of my computer and just watch slack messages come in all day if I wanted to, that would be so how do you manage that in your company and also for yourself?

Laura Frew:   Very good question. I would say each person has their own way of managing it. So some people will have like very specific moments of the day when they look at slack. You know, like process slack first thing in the morning, maybe once in the middle of the day, and once in the evening. Some people are just kind of on it all the time or like only take specific breaks from slack to get project work done. It really just depends.

Lisette:  So each person?

Laura Frew:  Exactly. So for me personally I’ll press a slack in the morning, I’ll kind of be on it to just answer questions. And I’m a very conversational person. And I work in a conversational way. And I like a lot of thinking out loud and kind of jumping on things together. So I’ll be on Slack, maybe more than most people just kind of like, Hey, this is what I’m working on. This is what I’m thinking and anybody have any input? Or just kind of, you know, [Inaudible 12:23], but what people don’t do that.

Lisette:  Mm-hmm.

Laura Frew:  And then I have to carve out specific moments when I’m not on slack to get like, solid quiet project work done.

Lisette:  Right. The deep work that happens.

Laura Frew:  Exactly.

Lisette:  Yeah, indeed. And in terms of you’ve mentioned a couple of times, I think with the WhatsApp group and with slack that people have their own preferences, of course for how they want to be interactive with some people want text message, some people don’t. How do you manage that as a team? Because it’s kind of hard. Is it hard to remember 21 different people’s preferences are what how do you guys do that?

Laura Frew:  So there’s really no rule around it. I mean, the kind of golden rules of Holacracy is like, you can do anything to serve your role unless there’s an explicit rule against it. So that could mean, you know, I have never, I’ve never stated a preference that somebody can’t schedule a meeting with me at like 10 pm. So theoretically, people could schedule meetings with me at 10 pm. And faster as you do. So I’ve just kind of checked in with people personally, and developed kind of a rhythm over time, like some people I know, like, text me all the time, and I text them back. And that’s it. And some people I’ve actually asked, and they’re like, no, don’t text me about work stuff, or if you do warn me.

Lisette:  Right, right. Right. So, so really, it’s a matter of remembering. So I asked because some teams have like a team agreement together where they outline how they want to work, do you have anything like that?

Laura Frew:   So not in this way around like channels of communication. We do have a number of team agreements, and they’re all in one document. Together. Some agreements are optional, some agreements or not. So there’s some agreements around like travel in coming to partner retreats, for example, that are not optional. But then there’s other ones that are like, agreements that anybody can add an agreement to this thing. So someone could be like, I think, whatever, you should respond to me within 24 hours if ever I send you a direct message or something like that, and then some people might voluntarily agree to that and some people won’t so that’s kind of a play with agreements.

Lisette:  So somebody can if they feel really strongly about a preference, they can state in this document like, Hey, I feel really I would like the team to behave like this. And the team can see it and have a discussion around it and agree or not agree?

Laura Frew:  Yes, yes. Or they could just say like, you know, on slack “hey, everybody, I have realized that I really don’t engage really well in this way”. So I’m just going to make a request to you as my partners to interact with me in this way? And then, of course, people can choose to honor that request or not honor that request. And both things happen.

Lisette:  Right. But it’s cool to have the information out there. And then if that sparks a conversation, if it doesn’t, it doesn’t.

Lisette:  Yeah, interesting. It sounds really, like formally informal somehow. It’s really, I really like it.

Laura Frew:   No, it’s true. Because on one level, like what we do is we’re creating a system in which people can work together in a very human and very personal way, in a way that like, respects each person’s autonomy. So it also like, you know, there are no employees in our company. We are all partners, we have 21 partners of this company and zero employees. And so the rule set that we’ve built around how to self-manage and how to interact kind of it, it’s all part and parcel of that, that principle, I would say.

Lisette:  Interesting, and that actually leads us right into the next area that I want to talk about, which is self-management. So you don’t have there’s no manager on your team, I’m assuming. Right? So how does that work? I have you worked for an organization where there was management, top-down management structure also?

Laura Frew:  I have.

Lisette:  Okay, so maybe, you know, how is it different?

Laura Frew:  It’s different at a very fundamental level. And it’s, it’s kind of you really don’t have somebody watching over your shoulder, looking at what you’ve done and what you haven’t done on a day to day basis. And it’s a very different just kind of feeling, I would say, it’s like you really you’re a partner of an organization, and the work that you have committed to doing and that’s it. So how, and like, what your working hours are, you know, although nobody cares, as long as you get your work done whenever you’ve agreed to do it, so as long as you’re meeting your agreements. It was a very different feeling. It’s a very different feeling.

Lisette:  What happens when somebody doesn’t meet their agreements?

Laura Frew:  It could trigger a conversation.

Lisette:  Who makes the decision?

Laura Frew:   Very good question. So we have some roles that are in charge of storing the kind of group of partners that are in the organization. And so if someone’s consistently not meeting their agreements, or something’s off or maybe like, something seems to be not working, any partner within the company can say, Hey, why don’t the rules accountable for reviewing partnerships, take a look at this partnership and review it and kind of do a preliminary both and I can trigger a conversation with the person they can, you know, just be like, hey, what’s going on?

Lisette:  I’m assuming there’s been a conversation with that person to begin with before it goes to any sort of vote. You know, I’m assuming people are communicating that something’s not working.

Laura Frew:  Right and, I think because we’re working on slack, and everything is written on one level, like there’s a lot of kind of constant feedback on one level happening for work, you know, somebody puts something out and people will give input and somebody put something else out and people will give input. So there’s kind of a bit of feedback on that level. But sometimes it doesn’t always capture the big stuff.

Lisette:  Right?

Laura Frew:  So this system that we want to put in place is anybody can call this, this conversation with the group that stores the partners. And then can do like a preliminary vote, and then that would trigger a conversation. So the partner might not know they might know. But then it’s the conversation that’s important and

Lisette:  Has it happened before?

Laura Frew:  Yeah, yeah, it happens frequently, actually. And it feels healthy. It feels very healthy. Like it’s, it’s a, you know, it’s that group of people that will actually hire partners and bring partners into the organization. And then it’s, it’s through that same process that we can fire people and right.

Lisette:  Right.

Laura Frew:  Definitely some stewardship of the pool of people that are working and when.

Lisette:  Yeah, I love it. I mean, I feel like in many organizations, there are so many people that just get promoted or put into another department or, or this you just don’t have the guts to fire them or, you know, I mean, that I’ve had to fire people. It totally destroys you. It’s so hard. I don’t know how I’ve asked a number of people and everybody says it’s just really hard. But I remember the first time I did it, I had to like walk in the woods the rest of the day, you know, I just [Inaudible 19:58] difficult process. So it’s interesting to hear that it happens regularly.

Laura Frew:   It is it is a difficult process. And what’s so interesting about it is that it really, it feels to me like, it feels like a healthy way of having these very difficult conversations.

Lisette:  Right.

Laura Frew:  You know, if you get the preliminary vote and it’s negative, it doesn’t mean you’re out of the organization, it just triggers a conversation. You can have a conversation, maybe you have to adjust the agreements, make additional agreements, make agreements around working hours, or output or change your compensation level or something like that.

Lisette:  Right.

Laura Frew:  Or it could agree, you know, or it could also result from the partner thinking like, yeah, you know, I don’t feel like I’m a good fit for this company right now. Like, maybe I will leave. And that’s happened a number of times, actually, where, you know, after having this first conversation, the person themselves was like, you know, I think, you know, I think people are right, actually, and I’m not quite feeling it right here right now. So that’s happened.

Lisette:  Right.

Laura Frew:  Yes.

Lisette:  Yeah, it seems super interesting. I have to say, you know, for the company that I work with management 3.0, we’ve also had a lot of people leave, or we voted people out because we have a flat management system, but it’s a little bit different. And, and it also seems healthy. Yes, at some level, on some level, you were like, oh, my God, all this turnover. And on the other level, you think like, actually, teams have to adjust in order to just, you know, to move with the times of it. And also, you know, things shrink and expand naturally. And why would teams also not be the same? In some ways?

Laura Frew:   It’s just right. And it’s one way of just keeping things aligned towards the same goal and you know, pruning, pruning your garden.

Lisette:  It’s a different way of looking at business. I mean, Gone are the days when you have a 15 year 20 year job. No, it’s the same company, your whole life kind of thing. I mean, it’s a different kind of a way of moving in the world, but I’m really curious about one thing and which is similar to what we’re talking about, which is feedback? How do you give feedback to each other? Is there a system for that? Is it more ad hoc? What is it? What do you guys do?

Laura Frew:  Very good question. We have, I would say a bunch of different processes. So for a long time, it’s been up to each partner together feedback as they see fit. Finally, we created a role that can help create processes used for feedback. I’d say, this is a challenge for me personally, at the moment where, you know, I’m somebody that I like to have specific goals and then see if I’ve met the goals or not. So that’s a hard piece for me. But um, but yeah, so now we have a role that’s created like a process for feedback. It’s a little form to whoever wants to request feedback and send out to people and gathers NPS scores and data and whatnot. And like, I’m kind of short text data and then that can get compiled and shared with the partner on their request. Or people often will just sort of schedule like feedback sessions from their peers. I used to do that once a year just kind of say like, hey, how am I doing in partnership with my peers think about me. Sometimes I created my own form and sent around form and asked people to fill it out. A variety of ways.

Lisette:  But so people can pretty much choose on their own how they’d like to collect feedback and when and from whom, and yeah, yeah,

Laura Frew:  Yes, exactly. So now this role exists in this process exists to make it easier for people to request feedback, but it’s, it’s by no means limiting to say like, you have to use this channel. It’s more like, hey, repackage something for you in case you don’t want to go think about it by yourself.

Lisette:  Right. So I love this. Okay, so we’re nearing the end of the time. Oh, man, I have so many questions. Okay, we’re nearing the end of the time. One thing though, that I was slipping my mind what I was going to ask that one thing, let’s say so there’s a quote I’ll go back to this there’s a quote here that says that you love and hate virtual work I think it was [Inaudible 24: who sent it to me said she loves and hates virtual work.

Laura Frew:  That sounds accurate.

Lisette:  So I’d like to know what do you love and hate about it.

Laura Frew:  Ah, I love the flexibility. I hate the flexibility.

Lisette:  Huh, okay, what’s hard?

Laura Frew: It’s, it’s great because you know I can work based on my energy I have a lot of really good energy in the morning. Sometimes I get up at least four in the morning and I start working and I love the fact that I don’t have to sleep for everybody else will show up in the office and just kind of like get on slack and like I love the fact that I can go do new yoga. I do yoga almost every day at noon. And then I’ll work again in the evening afternoon and I like that, you know, I can do that. At the same time, like there’s a lot of flexibility. So sometimes it’s like all this stuff kind of comes up. It’s like, oh my god, this is all urgent right now sort of and yet I have work that I need to do. So the office has been critical for like cutting out the rest of life sometimes when it happens, but sometimes it’s just like, that’s what’s up. And so it’s, it’s, it’s both.

Lisette:  Yeah.

Laura Frew:  Greatest strength is its greatest weakness for me.

Lisette:  I can I think I can totally relate because I see people in offices or have office jobs and I’m like, oh, it looks so relaxing to show up at nine and leave at five and like, it looks so like I don’t think about anything. On the other hand, I’ve done it before and I just have this…I just can’t do it. I’m not very good at it. So much rather hustle all day then then do that. And the thing that you said is that you liked having a quiet environment. So is that like personal work preference? It and have you worked in an open office before.

Laura Frew:   So an open office is actually fine. If I need to concentrate I just be quiet because my personality type is such that like, I like to play, I like to engage with things. So if there’s something around that I can play with and get to play with it. So people come in really hey, what’s going on? Hey, what’s up what’s going on it kind of…So that’s great for certain things in certain moments. And it’s also like, just know that about myself. So also, like, if I’m going to go get deep work done, I have to have a door closed. Also, I think I’ve been remote for so long that a lot of the people that are around don’t understand what remote work is. So they’re kind of like, oh, you’re not doing anything.

Lisette:  Even now even

Laura Frew:   You are just on the computer like yeah, and so, I finally learned like in order to kind of like people, just come up to me. And they’re like because I can’t see what you’re doing something, you must not be doing anything. So if they’re not connected with what I’m doing, then they’ll just kind of come up and talk to me at random times during the day or like, hey, can you drive me to the store? I am working!

Lisette:  Right.

Laura Frew:  Whatever. So kind of, in order for me to get the respect in the space that I need for what I’m actually doing, I kind of need to be in a place where I can close the door and create like a physical barrier. Me for myself, but also for other people. So they’re like, oh, something is actually happening in there. Right?

Lisette:  Right. Interesting, isn’t it? Because at the office, we are also I mean, many of us sitting just at our computers, and that’s it. So it’s just the location that throws them off.

Laura Frew:  Yes, exactly.

Lisette:  In a solace…okay, I’m now I’m showing him advice. You’re not in a cubicle farm. Like what’s going on?

Laura Frew:  Right, exactly, exactly. So people still have this conception of like, oh, if you’re working, then you’re going to be like in this environment. And if you’re not in that environment, then you’re not working, or like, what you’re working on is not serious or something like that.

Lisette:  Right.

Laura Frew:  So I never benefited.

Lisette:  It’s interesting, but that’s still.

Laura Frew:  Still…

Lisette:  I’m sorry, say that again. I talked to…

Laura Frew:   [Inaudible 28:15] an older generation.

Lisette:  Ah, Interesting. Yeah interesting. It’s true. I mean, the younger generation who lives online. Like you, you’ve heard of the digital nomad before, whereas you strive to view it at some point. So what advice would you give for people who are just starting out? And it’s kind of a two-pronged question because I would say like, what advice would you give for people who are going to work remotely as a company? Maybe you know, from a management perspective, but then also, like, if you wanted to start with Holacracy, where would you even begin? So two-pronged question.

Laura Frew:   Okay, well, I’ll take the first question first. If you’re going to just start out remotely Um, I don’t know, I want to say take it seriously actually, and like set yourself up for success, figure out what you need in order to be successful. And do it, that’s really important. Like more important, I would say, then if you’re getting managed by somebody else, or if you’re in an office that’s already getting managed by somebody else, like, at least for me, that’s been critical to really set your own self up for success, whatever that might mean for you, working style. And then, on the other hand, I would say like, don’t be afraid to experiment. You know, and this sort of blends into the Holcracy thing of like, you know, now we’re doing self-management. This has worked really well, especially for us being in a remote company. Because of the way of tracking projects and prioritizing work, a lot of it’s based on each person so you don’t really need a manager. So you don’t have to like deal with like, how do you remotely manage there’s the system and of itself, so for people that are just wanting to get started with Holacracy. On one hand, I would say think about? Yeah, really think deeply about whether you want to go for self-management. It’s an amazing practice. And it requires a lot of commitment. It’s a total, it’s a total paradigm shift. And what it can do is amazing, but really, it requires a good bit of commitment. So I would say think about it first, and then come chat with us.

Lisette:  Right, right.

Laura Frew:

Lisette:   I was just going to say well, yeah, where can people find you? But you know, I love it actually kind of ties the whole conversation together perfectly, because it’s the same, like when you get Holacracy, right, it can totally rock your organization. I can imagine. Yeah, like getting there might be a little bit difficult. You know, it’s a transition. So it’s going to, you’re going to stumble along the way but when you get it right, you can totally rock things. Same thing with remote working like getting a remote working organization can be hard, but what When you get a right man, it’s magical.

Laura Frew:  Exactly. And actually they interplay they play together quite well.

Lisette:  I can imagine.

Laura Frew:   Right, in part because you don’t have to deal with this, like, how do you manage a team remotely kind of thing? It’s like there are systems in place that manage work, that help people manage things and help you and for prioritizing things in a strategic way. And so with those rules in place, it actually makes something like this almost organic.

Lisette:  Right, yeah, I can totally imagine. I can totally imagine. Sounds really, it sounds like the perfect like a perfect blend of way of working and, and the remoteness. So I love it. You’ll be seeing my name around.

Laura Frew:  Yeah.

Lisette:  Because yeah sounds super interesting. And I think we’re also connected via Happy Melly you did a podcast with Sam on the Happy Melly podcast. So yeah, it’s the same sort of family of Yes. Moving towards happier people at work. Well, Laura, thank you so much for talking today. If people want to find you where’s the best way to find you online?

Laura Frew:  You can find me at So kind of a long mouthful, H-O-L-A-C-R-A-C-Y so Holacracy, we’re on the website.

Lisette:  Okay.

Laura Frew:  Check us out; come say hi, at least I love interacting with anybody people yay. So hit me up, I will be very happy.

Lisette:  Alright, so all you extroverts out there even introverts so you can now have access to Laura, she would love to talk to you. So thanks so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.

Laura Frew:  Yeah I know, it’s been a pleasure talking.

Lisette:  Okay, and then until next time, everybody. Be powerful.



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