173 - Nicole Le Maire on the Collaboration Superpowers podcast

Nicole Le Maire is a Global People Advisor with The People Engine, a company that helps you think through the new ways of working. Nicole has lived all over the world, working in one city for 3 to 6 months and then… going somewhere new. She shares her knowledge about setting up HR processes and frameworks for remote teams, why companies are going remote, why some will never go remote, and how to stop looking for work-life balance and instead, build a career lifestyle.

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Nicole’s tips for working remotely:

  • Always have work you can do offline in case the wifi connection fails.
  • When you’re on the road, learn to be flexible and patient.
  • Set clear expectations with your clients and colleagues.
  • When your company grows to more than 20 people, have your HR processes and frameworks in place. Hire expertise if you’re unsure.
  • When working with global teams, pay attention to legislation regarding remote workers. Again, hire expertise if you’re unsure.
  • If you’re trying to convince your manager to let you go remote, start slow and build up trust.


Podcast production by Podcast Monster
Graphic design by Alfred Boland


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Original transcript

Lisette:            Welcome to the Collaboration Super Powers podcast, my name is Lisette and I’m interviewing people in companies doing great things remotely.

Hello everybody and welcome to episode number one hundred seventy three, you may have noticed that a couple of episodes in the last month have been archival episodes and that is because I’m taking a two month hiatus from everything so that I can focus on finally finishing my book; collaboration superpowers. The editor and I have been working on it all year and it’s almost done and I just need to find the time to focus on the final pieces, so expect it soon, it is really coming and in the meantime I’d like to give you the last live interview of the year. This time it’s with Nicole Le Maire who is a global people advisor with a company called the people engine but first let me give you guys this week’s one minute tip.

This week’s tips come straight from the interview which is ‘when you’re on the road plan work that you can do without Wi-Fi.’ When we’re traveling and when we’re on the go it can be really hard to find reliable Wi-Fi and also weird things happened. So it’s always good to have a stockpile of work that you can do anywhere so that when the Wi-Fi goes out your time is not a total waste. Good planning can go a long way, okay let’s get on with the interview.


Today I’m featuring Nicole Le Maire a global people advisor with the people engine it’s a company that helps you think through the new ways of working. Nicole is from the Netherlands, someone else from the Netherlands total coincidence but she has lived all over the world working in one city for three to six months and then going somewhere new. She helps companies set up their H.R process and frameworks for remote teams and she has something really interesting to say about work life balance. She says instead, we should build a career lifestyle but before I give too much away let’s get straight to the interview this is Nicole Le Maire.

First question what does your virtual office look like, what do you need to get your work done?


Nicole:             There are a variety of things I use for my virtual office, I always have my computer, my laptop, my tablets, my phone, mobile and then I have my banners with me just how to help create a good setting for wherever I’m working and I’m usually located three to six months in a different country around the world. So it’s really dependent on where I’m at the time, what I need to bring with me as well.


Lisette:            So when you say banners are you talking about the two banners that are behind you right now?


Nicole:             Indeed yes, and I’m looking at some new auctions as well and there’s some really nice new wall painting things you can switch on as well. So I’m looking at implementing those as well in my locations wherever I am.


Lisette:            Interesting so tell us about the locations where you’ve been and how you choose your next location?


Nicole:             It really depends on the work I’m getting as well. At the moment I’m looking, I’m going back to Asia and mainly because a lot of the clients are there and it’s nice to pop in once in a while in their office and ‘oh you’re Nicole,’ you know and meet up in real life. So I’m… depending on the clients but [inaudible – 03:42] with the place. I’ve been in all of the places in the Middle East, [inaudible 03:48], parts of Asia, the US, so it’s really like remote work digital no not style but not so much from a sandy beach type of a… much more for a how can I help the client, in which location are they and then possibly go there or close to there and once in a while meet up.


Lisette:            So being on the road like that, sometimes you get to stay in a particular location for three to six months that gives you chance to really know each location I can imagine. What have you learned about working like this because you have to set up your virtual office wherever you are and it’s probably different in different parts of the world? I mean, what have you learned from doing this?


Nicole:             You become a lot more flexible, you always have work that you can do without a Wi-Fi. Wi-Fi connection, so always have something else to work on if Wi-Fi fails so you don’t get frustrated that day. Also have expectations with people you’re working with, they might drop off any time. And I love your flashcards and there should be dropping off you know connection going bad or something like. That is Wow so it really depends on the locations and usually the locations you least expect it, you have the best network and the best communication set up. So that’s I think what I love about working this way and I’m not talking about it like co-working spaces because sometimes it’s not always the best to be in a co-working space from various obvious reasons. I like to rent a house or an apartment and do everything from there, from my set up wise.


Lisette:            Right, so does the Wi-Fi vary a lot really from place to place or is it starting to get better? I mean is it starting to be like good Wi-Fi, no okay.


Nicole:             No not at all and I travel with my own Wi-Fi connection as well but that’s just for downloading emails and also on your phone it does work and it doesn’t work. So you have to jump constantly between different device with different networks which is great but I think always have something with you to work otherwise you just go totally frustrated.


Lisette:            Yeah it sounds like one would have to have a lot of patience to work this way because all kinds of weird things must come up while you’re on the road. What about culture, what do you run into? I mean you have traveled, I mean Asia and the Middle East and the US, I mean those are very different cultures. What do you experience when you’re working, do people think what you’re doing is weird or is it just totally normal now?


Nicole:             It’s totally weird and especially a female working this way and not only digital nomad style, it’s in an apartment or a house for three months or six months and they are thinking whatever it is lady doing coming with the banners etc. but it really depends on the culture of the people. Usually they’re pretty curious and pretty interested and they are very supportive. So I’ve had instances where my Wi-Fi wouldn’t work and then I would go to the neighbor and they would allow me to work in their house, their living room and when I have my banners up or when I’m talking to clients, they’re so interested. I get cups of coffee and cookies etc. They take care of you, so sometimes it’s a totally different work aspect. It doesn’t have to be lonely or [inaudible – 07:48]. I have my team I’ve worked with everywhere so there’s constant interaction and people can do it and it doesn’t have to be and party style, digital nomad style. It can be proper remote work, what that is proper in terms of long term and still able to really add value as well.


Lisette:            Yeah sounds incredible what you’re doing, I really like the three to six months too because I know with digital nomads for myself personally being on the road so much from hopping from place to place a lot really would, it would throw me off I really need to be somewhere for a while and just like settle in but I mean that’s why everybody gets to choose what they like the best, that’s the best part of it all.


Nicole:             Yes exactly and I do a lot of the house sitting as well, so people want me to come to the house and [inaudible 08:44] the countries and after you build a network and if consultants in a certain their next go on holiday or have work abroad they ask me to host at their house. So that’s another way really learning how integrating in the community and then learning about the place and the culture, the food etc. yeah.


Lisette:            That is lovely, I love that idea, the whole idea of building a global network where you’re welcome in many people’s homes all over the world, and it sounds amazing.

Nicole:            There’s definitely, it’s amazing and it’s fun but of course as always what you say ‘the stress of moving, picking up your stuff, is Wi-Fi happening or not?’ So if you do this you need to be realistic with your two feet on the ground to make it happen.


Lisette:           Did you start out realistic or did you grow into being more realistic?


Nicole:            A little bit of both, I’ve always traveled for my role, I ran the bills as well and in the corporate bills when that was working so I never actually sat in one place for very long and I think that has got a lot to do with the style for work now as well.


Lisette:           Interesting, well I really want to talk about the people engine so your website is thepeopleengine.me so people engine me, and your a Global people advisor supporting this new world of work. What does that mean, what does the people engine do?


Nicole:             We do a variety of things, so I just received a request for them to do some hiring in Dubai. I’m supporting a company and my team in Pakistan, we’re working with some people in Italy at the moment on a variety of startup work of helping to set up the H.R from a remote work perspective. So what you look at from a team perspective, I look at from a particular H.R perspective. So with another company in Australia I’m working to make sure that they’re legally viable from the [inaudible – 10:56] nomads, the people they hire do they actually pay their taxes or are they actually working in different way. So I and my team we do different things and I like to keep it that way. I don’t want to only focus on creating, I don’t want to focus only on the people operations and H.R, I like to do a variety of things because that’s what I’m best at.


Lisette:           Wow and what do companies, what are something like, what are the first with the basics that companies need to look at when they’re thinking about their H.R and setting up for remote teams. I mean there must be some common mistakes that people make.


Nicole:             It’s highly interesting and I’m not talking, I’m leaving the team set ups and the technology asides but hiring people as an online business remotely is very easy on one side but to get quality people is going to be a lot harder to find and people who want to work remotely are looking at first if the people you have in your team and I think that’s what online basis are great at. Looking at all types of people and the challenge they had, they’re setting it up online business it runs like mad. That twenty thirty forty, fifty people and then at once they realize are we compliant or how are we on boarding our people, do people actually understand how it was when we started when we were two or three or four in the garage or somewhere else. So I think those are the challenges and we come in and we look at overall set up, from a H.R perspective and then we move on and we restructure and we plan, inputting frameworks that work and then we leave them usually to it. So I’m all for H.R but at some point business needs to either hire somebody in the company themselves or they need to spread it out and become H.R entrepreneurs themselves and that’s what I really look at self-sufficiency from H.R perspective.


Lisette:            So you come in and put the processes and the framework in place and then you say ‘okay guys run with it, call me when things blow up. I’ll be back to fix it again,’ wow.


Nicole:             I think that’s why they built their online businesses, they didn’t build it to have procedures and legal frameworks and the traditional old fashioned H.R, you have to wear this, this is how you have to look behind the computer, we expect you to be there from nine to five and there’s a lot of online businesses that do work that way and it’s just wrong to be honest, it just doesn’t match up whatsoever. So when we come in it’s really looking at what’s securely in place, what is your overall goal with your business, what was that you initially thought about it, how did you set it up and don’t let it change because your hiring for people from Asia or the Middle East or America. Make sure you keep that cultural value and move it on.


Lisette:            Wow so I’m surprised to hear that online businesses are still trying to conform to the in-person norms, which is really interesting. That is really interesting because you would, I mean it is a totally new way of working but it’s interesting that they’re taking what they know from the office and placing it directly into the online world and it’s not working. So why doesn’t the nine to five work?


Nicole:             I think people have different preferences from if you’re possibly a morning person or afternoon, or time zones, if you work across the board. So some mornings I’m working very early, some evenings I’m working very late. You need to calculate that in how you set up your team and also your processes and when you hire a person from Asia are you looking at paying equal to somebody from the U.S for example? These things are coming into play as well and do you want that or not for your team. So these are things that do need to be looked at especially if a business is growing over twenty people.


Lisette:            Is that the magic number, like if it’s more than twenty people you start to need to have H.R processes in place?


Nicole:             Yes you start losing out on the culture you previously wanted it to be because there’s so many different attitudes, cultures and thinking from people and everybody wants to have their say and it’s very difficult for owners to then keep on to ‘this is what I wanted to have and this is how I want it to be.’ And then we come in with for example tools, processes etc. but flexible ones you can’t have or [inaudible – 16:19]


Lisette:            Yeah those big old rule books that we used to get as new employees that is a, that’s a dinosaur thing now, it’s an archive. Speaking of dinosaurs where does the resistance come from when you’re going into this company. Who resists the most the changes that you want to put in place?


Nicole:             The people coming straight from a corporate way of working and the people that have worked this way, whether they have been called consultants for a long time or just coming into the workforce from a remote work perspective they’re pretty flexible but people are wanting to be freelancers or independent contractors moving into the remote road to work, it’s very difficult for them it’s totally different mindsets. The ways of working, the ways of interacting it’s just a learning curve for many of them.


Lisette:            Interesting, okay so people coming from the corporations, the corporate side that are struggling when they have to go to the more remote side because it is such a different way of working indeed.


Nicole:            Exactly so the way we communicates together now, this is what we do on a daily basis and this is how we help people but when you come from a corporate world your used to the water cooler conversation but we have am e-cup and we have a chat. That water cooler needs to be built into you’re organization if you want to have something like that and for many individuals it is difficult. It’s doable but it’s very difficult.


Lisette:           Interesting, I love the e-cup as the water cooler, I call a virtual coffee but I like that, the e-cup of coffee indeed. So what are some of the processes and frameworks, give us an idea of some of the things that you set up for people just for people just to get a picture.


Nicole:             So let me look at, I’ll take one of the companies I’m working with at the moment for example they’re looking at implementing performance management, and were not talking about the appraisals but we are looking at actually what are their ratings, how much are they getting done on their projects, is it [inaudible 18:38] on time and these are the things. So you’re taking a little bit of a how it’s used to be and then implementing it, okay how we can actually put a data analytics on that and how effective this is. First invest the project they’re on and then if they’re less effective, how can we make sure that this person keeps productive and finding new ways of keeping the productivity on and that can be with tools or apps or can just be coaching than the MP through and new way of work, a new way of doing the project.


Lisette:           Do you find, one of the things that I hear from companies or from a lot of remote teams is that they’re sort of thrown into being remote teams but they don’t get any training. Is that also what you hear?


Nicole:             Yes well everybody starts to work remotely and there are training courses to work remotely but it’s the different mindsets and putting all these people together without proper remote experience in terms of how do we communicate online, what are the ‘yes’ and the ‘no’s’, what we can do, what we can’t say. It’s very difficult so I totally believe they’re just getting chucked in there and for me it was the same so many years ago when I was in the cooperate world for [inaudible -19:59] You go off and you travel to world and you look at the headquarters and all the branches in Africa, no telling there are fifty two branches. These are things you find out when you’re on the ground. So I think that’s the difference is it requires swimming a lot and I think there’s it is a way of using the training and the teams together but I think a lot come stands for individual requirements and how the person likes to work as well.


Lisette:            Why are companies, why are the companies that you’re working with why are they starting to go remote? What are some of the reasons that they’re doing that because they could stay the way they are I’m assuming.


Nicole:            Many could, some of the online startups, they’re based online and I think first of all a cost perspective but also a lot of people want to work remotely now and it gives opportunities to diversify it. An inclusion work force, you’re looking at ‘I have to dyslexia,’ you’re looking at people that might be able to work better remotely and be able to work, for mothers between certain hours to pick up their kids. I think it’s a requirement that they’re working towards of society and the community but there big buzz, there’s a lot of companies that don’t want it and will not want it and the dinosaur effect is still very relevant and also for people like myself, people coming in from a marketing or finance perspective, from a modem H.R perspective trying to help these companies and it’s sometimes very difficult to move this old traditional mindsets forwards and then you have to the big corporates software companies that ‘yes we’re working remotely and we’re implementing this system and we’re doing this and we’re doing that and we’re working with these clients but thinking about smaller clients that might not be ready for what they’re producing. So you’re getting a real split in terms of people working remotely and people working the traditional way which is nothing wrong with it if it works for the company, but then you get a mind shift of you have to do it and people and companies have to be ready for it.


Lisette:            Oh wow so there’s actually like a divide happening right now, it’s like there are people that are like shooting ahead with the remote working and others that don’t want it but then the tools are being developed for it and probably the millennial coming in are wanting it more and more. I mean a lot of them don’t want to be stuck in an office, I call them day prisons myself, but I’m super biased of course because I love the remote world. Why don’t companies want to embrace the remote, what are they afraid of, what don’t they want?


Nicole:             Well I think, I mean some of the things that have been discussed in your podcast is the fear, it’s a fear of an M.P not being able to perform, it’s a fear of is this M.P actually sitting behind the computer all day doing the work for me and it’s much more about looking at implementing projects and making sure that the person actually finish the project then actually from nine to five looking at is person be at the computer and if you look at some of the platforms. The geek platforms, there are some lovely tools with this geek platforms and they calculate time you’re working on with your client but what they’re doing is actually taking the corporate focus of your nine to five and you know for somebody like, I’ll take myself with dyslexia I’m pretty quick and I’ve learned to handle it all but there might be people that’s ‘oh my God, oh my God, two hours to finish this task,’ and it’s wonderful if there are two hours. It’s the productivity time but if you want to take it a little bit longer and you are working via this global platform, or the geek platform. It’s actually goes against everything and it becomes almost discrimination towards the people that are working on their tasks. So there’s a few things I think that they are impacting this remote world as well.


Lisette:            Indeed I always find it very strange like if somebody, when we are doing time based payment or time based work, hourly based work you’re kind of encouraging people to take the maximum amount of time that they can in order to finish the work because then they get paid the maximum amount but instead if it’s results oriented well then maybe you get it done in two hours and that takes me eight hours but we still have the same results. It’s like clever for you, it kind of encourage you to do it in the least amount of time. It’s like if you finished in two hour you should be punished, you should be rewarded that you got it done faster. So yeah the time based work does seem like a thing of the past but sure is an easy way to calculate what people are doing, but on the other hand like what about when I go running and I have a great idea or I’m just talking with friends and something comes to me. Like where do you count that, that’s also part of the whole equation, that thinking time?


Nicole:             I think to and I think it’s all about changing the mindset of what’s remote work really is and it’s, I think it’s influenced by the people with laptops on the beach and of course everybody’s effective but how about looking at actually the data of these people working remotely and seeing the efficiency of the people and I think some of your podcast talk about that as well and I think it’s going to be very difficult to break this fear from the traditional work and I think even if we build a bigger movement I think this is going to be the way it’s going to stay for quite some time and especially if you look at from a H.R perspective. How can an H.R person work online? It’s not doable, you’re not talking to the people, you should be on the ground, you should be meeting them, you should learn about the problems. So these are the things that my profession works against and these has been for years now. Is how can you be productive as a people person, as an H.R person working remotely? You can’t in many people’s eyes but then again, what am I doing? I’m making a good, a very good living and I have my team all around to do exactly the same. So it really is the perception of people.


Lisette:            Yeah and how do we change that perception, if you’re an employee working for a company that does not allow flexibility, what are some of the steps you can take? Not that I’m trying to plant a… okay maybe I am trying to plant a revolution here but what are some of the steps that people…


Nicole:            I’ve been trying a long time.


Lisette:            What can we do, how do we build trust in these old dinosaur managers that are really afraid of the work not getting done, because I mean in my experience and of course I’ve got a very biased audience but in my experience remote workers work too hard. Burn out is sort of the issue, it’s not laziness, I mean I’m sure there’s lazy ones out there but I haven’t met them.


Nicole:            No we need to be honest it’s the very hardworking people and because they are dedicated, they are very focused this is the project or that’s the project and we finish it and we move on to the next one. I think from a from an employee perspective in that specific company, if you’re looking at a traditional company. Well there’s a lot of legislation now in place in the western world about flexible working. So that’s one of the first steps. Well as an H.R person and I shouldn’t be saying this but I’m not always for flexible working because of various reasons. I don’t think sometimes it doesn’t add anything, especially using it through the way the legislation is set up but that’s one of the ways in the western world you can start approaching it and they have to listen to you. The company, your employee they have to listen to you, the other ways are starting one or two hours ‘I can’t concentrate at work, can I please do this work at home and I leave at three o’clock and say I work two hours in my own time to make up for it.’ That’s another way and that slowly and then it becomes four hours, it becomes six and then ‘oh I really need this day to work at home,’ and this is how you bring it slowly into the company and then it takes months to be able to this properly but it is a little bit of creativity requirement.


Lisette:            I love it, so really start slow. Deep your toes in and get everybody used to it and show… I think it’s like an easy way of building trust, like really small trust deposits that you can leave along the way that slowly they start to realize that actually you’re going remote because you want to be more productive and like who doesn’t want that on their team?


Nicole:            Exactly, exactly.


Lisette:            So you said that you are not for remote working in some cases. What are some of the reasons why you would advise against it? I can imagine that there’s like a culture where it’s just not going to work and you can see it when you go in but what are the…before I give all the answers that I think they are but why would you not advice for it?

Nicole:            Well first of all if there’s certain legislation in place. Some legislation in the western world is so particularly focused on flexible working, work life balance and I don’t particularly believe in a work life balance. It’s a career lifestyle you build up because our generation’s will still be working above their seventy’s, eighty’s and ninety’s probably. So we are looking from a different perspective of how the world is being created now and then what you mentioned in certain countries is just not doable. Possibly they will move on quicker once they open up to bits but at the moment it’s relatively difficult and I’m talking about some Middle Eastern countries, possibly some parts of Asia. It’s just at the moment not in the focus of companies and companies don’t want to work with remote workers, it’s very clear.


Lisette:           Okay.


Nicole:            and then I think it’s individuals, a lot of people are not cut out to be a remote worker and I don’t mean any disrespect but it can be pretty lonely. You need to be able to motivate yourself every day and I mean when I say every day it’s every day and if you don’t have that in yourself and if you like to be constantly around people you might not always be the right person to hundred percent work remotely. You may be able to do a number of but the hundred percent remote work requires a certain mindset as well.


Lisette:            Yeah I can imagine, I mean I remember when my husband first went remote and he hated it, he hated sitting at home alone and he was very self-motivated but he just needed to be around people and so he rented an office so that his team could get together and of course they’re allowed to work remotely when they want to otherwise I’d have to divorce him but he does really like being around the people and a lot of people have said that to me. So yeah there’s something to that, I would say people should work where they are most productive like wherever that is, if it’s in the office well great it’s in the office but I love that people have the choice. So we’re getting to the end of the time, I’m always going over but this is very interesting but I want to ask you about your online courses that you offer. There’s one that’s called ‘Essential Guide To Managing the W.W workforce’ I don’t know if I pronounced that as it was intended but you have some great online courses, what are those about?


Nicole:            I wanted to just build some basic courses around certain topics and the one you just mentioned willed word workforce one is the essential guide and it helps employers, traditional employers but also possibly those looking to start remote working. Go through a certain process of how do we start, from an H.R perspective and that’s what I really wanted to give out in the world and help people to understand that there’s different way of working remotely. It doesn’t need to be one particular way, it’s what you mentioned, where are you most productive and whether that’s three days in the office and two days at home or working seven days a week and taking a whole week off, it doesn’t matter as long as she finish up your work and that’s really going through this course, really goes through that process of; what systems do we use or rather some of the free freelance management systems and we can use as well as what are the things you work against when trying to work remotely.


Lisette:            You mentioned freelance management systems, are there a lot of those out there, where you can like see what people are doing, recording their time, is that what you mean by that?


Nicole:             Yes and they take over the whole, so instead of a HRS system so a H.R. Software system, these systems they manage everything from taxation, payroll to employee records, these types of things but from data security as well. So if you’re working with a variety of independent contractors and freelancers this might really suit you in terms of managing your workforce and it becomes a legal perspective them covering certain aspects as well and there’s more and more on the on the markets actually.


Lisette:            I can imagine.


Nicole:             It used to be very [inaudible – 34:51] but now it is pretty opening up the markets for that.


Lisette:            Yeah I can imagine that there’s a whole new world in terms of needing that and I can imagine, I mean is it, it’s pretty complicated the tax system I’m assuming. If you’re a company in Asia and you’re working with people in Saudi Arabia and the U.S and everybody has to take care of their own taxes. Yeah I can imagine that that’s a pretty complicated process.


Nicole:             I mean they all take, independent contractors are responsible for their own taxation and reporting their own results however governments are looking at that aspect and this is one of the things, it’s going to be very interesting for the financial sector and the financial listeners because there will be a lot of experts need once governments start saying to online businesses ‘well where do you have your workers and where are the independent contractors?’ and it is coming to, in certain countries it’s coming to the point where some may have to pay pensions on the basis they have to pay pensions to their freelance workers. So there’s various aspects of the remote’s world. Yes its freedom, yes wonderful we all want freedom but there are some countries especially Western countries that might not be so happy about all these [inaudible 36:18] for independent contractors living around the world.


Lisette:       I have to say I had to hire a special accountant just because I’m an American living in the Netherlands, travelling all over the place I mean it got really tricky at one point I had to hire an expert to help me out on this because I didn’t want to… you can’t go back and say ops! I didn’t know that this law existed, that’s not an excuse so you can’t claim ignorance on these things even though they’re really hard to figure out. So all you freelancers out there get help and get expertise on this so you don’t get in trouble because government they mean it.


Nicole:             Definitely yes, especially over the next couple of years yeah it will be harsh for many people unfortunately.


Lisette:            Yeah, I had some eye opening experiences myself, I must say I was a glad to have expertise. So Nicole last question, if people want to learn more about you what’s the best place to get in touch, where do you send people?


Nicole:            It would be the website and then they can fill in the contacts from there, thepeopleengines.me and I look forward to hearing their questions as well and see how it can share knowledge. I think that’s the best way to learn a network in a remote world.


Lisette:            Alright everybody I hope you enjoyed that episode, I really enjoyed the conversation with Nicole it was so clear that she knows what she’s doing. I’ll wish you Happy Holidays as we’re going to be taking the next two weeks off and we’ll be back in January and February with archive editions of the collaboration superpowers podcast while I take a break to finally finish the book. If you don’t want to miss out on any of the great stories and tips go to the Collaboration Super Powers website and sign up on our newsletter. Every other week you’ll get all the best practices, tips and great stories delivered straight to the inbox of wherever you are. A special jingle bell theme to Nick [inaudible – 38:20] our podcast producer, he’s the one that makes us sound so pro, you can hire him to make you a star at podcastmonster.com and another big thanks to our dazzling designer Alfred Boland, he is the one that makes us shine so bright. You can hire him to make you look cool at bolandan.nl, until next time everybody let’s build our remote career lifestyles and be powerful.


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