Erin Thomas-Wong is the CEO and Founder at Making Mumpreneurs, a company dedicated to empowering mums to build businesses through information, tips, and inspiration. After having her first son, Erin left a career in television production to focus more on her family. She is now the mum of two boys and loves the freedom that she has by working for herself and helping other mothers to start businesses that work around their family life.
Lisette: Great, and we’re live. So welcome, everybody, to this remote interview. My name is Lisette, and I’m interviewing people and companies doing great things remotely. Today, a special treat, something that I don’t normally focus on because I’m not a mom. I don’t have children. I won’t ever have children as far as I know. So I tend to sort of ignore this aspect. But today, on the line, we have Erin Thomas Wong from makingmumpreneurs.com. And you were born within England. And you are the daughter of Sue Thomas who I interviewed a few podcast episodes ago, one of my favorite podcast episodes. So people, go back and listen to Sue Thomas’s interview after you’ve listened to this one.
Erin, thanks so much for being here. And I want to start with my opening question, which is what does your virtual office look like. What do you need to get your work done?
Erin: Well, I’m very lucky that I can be completely flexible with where I work. And that’s what I love about having a digital business. So I mainly work from home. I work on the sofa. And I’m often surrounded by the kids’ toys. And I’m always trying to have a quick tidy up so that it’s not in my high line. But often, a musical show sets up in the corner of the room. But I love working at home, and I love sitting on the sofa. And then I move around, and I might work in the kitchen. Today I was even sitting in the garden, working in the garden, which is amazing. But for me, when I’m most productive is when I go out and I work in a café or a coffee shop. And I’m really lucky to live near the beach. So there are loads of really funky, beachside cafés where you can sit and see the sea and have a coffee. And I do my best work when I’m out and about. I actually love the kind of the noise and the people around. And I actually find that I focus really well when there’s other stuff going on because I kind of enjoy having it there but knowing that I’m focusing on my computer. Whereas if I’m at home and it’s all quiet, I don’t really like the silence. I think that’s one thing that you kind of miss when you’ve worked in an office before, working on your own. Sometimes you miss that hubbub of an office.
Lisette: Right, yeah, indeed. And everybody has their different places of where they are most productive. So yeah, I’d love… Also, I can imagine at home. If the kids are there, it’s not like it’s just… I mean there’s noise and stuff going on. But when you’re out in a café, it’s stranger. So you don’t have to pay attention to them. Whereas kids are probably demanding a little bit more attention.
Erin: Yeah. I can’t really work around the kids. I’m lucky that I can do stuff on my smartphone to keep my Facebook community going and stuff like that. But when they’re at school, you still feel like you are surrounded by (like you say) their things and also, thinking about the chores that you need to do. I need to do the washing. I need to tidy up the breakfast dishes. And to be able to leave the house just clears my mind. And all I’m concentrating on is the task in hand.
Lisette: Right. So let’s talk a little bit about what you’re doing. Making Mumpreneurs, it sounds weird for an American to say mum.
Lisette: So [laughs]. Making Mumpreneurs, tell us the story. What does Making Mumpreneurs do? And why did you start this?
Erin: Making Mumpreneurs is all about empowering mums to build businesses and supporting them through their journey of working for themselves. I think that there is a huge movement now of women who are very highly educated, who can’t or don’t want to return to their previous careers because of lack of flexibility. Picking up children from school and even some school clubs, they finish at 5:00. And if you’re working somewhere and you can’t finish work till 5:00, you’ve got a problem getting back. So there are so many women out there who want to do something and want to do something important to them, and they’re setting up all these businesses. And so with Making Mumpreneurs, I’m supporting them and giving them advice and basically kind of being there to say, “I know how hard it is. I’m doing it too. And let’s all support each other.”
Lisette: Wow! Okay. So what does that support look like? I notice that you have the cocoon, which is a place for people to come together on Facebook, is it? I’m not sure if I got that right.
Erin: There is a Facebook group attached to it. The idea of the cocoon is that it’s completely online. So my background is when I first started working for myself eight years ago, when my first son was born, I started actually a jewelry business. I was making handmade jewelry. And I met up with another mum who was [inaudible – 04:51] her own business. And we together set up [inaudible – 04:54] in business, which was in West London. And it was a face-to-face networking group. We ran local business meetups and things like that. And it was so amazing this community that we built up of other mums and dads as well who were trying to run businesses around family life.
When I moved away from London after about six years, I really, really missed that community. And that’s when I thought, “You know what? I need to do something online. It doesn’t matter where you are in the world.” And that’s the thing. It’s not even about London anymore. It’s about this is worldwide. So the idea of making mumpreneurs is that it’s connecting mums from all over the world. And the cocoon is taking it one step further. And I like to call it the inner sanctum of Making Mumpreneurs. So it’s a place that really motivated mums to want to grow their business by learning new skills and just really feel like you’ve got a network around you. So in their cocoon, we have master classes from visiting experts about all sorts of things, mapping your customer user journey, how to sell with confidence and not feel like you’re being too salesy. And also, personal development things as well, how to improve your confidence, how to get yourself out of the funk.
So there are all these kinds of different things. But on top of that, we have the Facebook community, which is just a really tight network of mums. And we just share our challenges and we share our successes. And we’ve been doing challenges to get ourselves out of our comfort zones like doing Facebook live challenges where a lot of the women in the group are just terrified of video. And the last thing they would want to do is go on Facebook live. But this is so important these days for social media and for marketing your business. So I [inaudible – 06:53] the challenge. This week I would need to go live in the group. So you’re doing it in the cocoon. It’s completely safe place. And just answer one question. What’s your name? Where do you live? And then the next day, a bit more and a bit more. And the feedback was amazing. And it’s this whole thing about being in a safe place where you can be learning and growing personally and growing your business.
Lisette: Where does the [inaudible – 07:18] of the video come from? I see it too.
Erin: I know. I know. Yeah. To be honest, I’m really comfortable doing videos. And I do a lot of videos for Making Mumpreneurs. But I’ve always been scared of Facebook live because I worry that I’m going to say something in the wrong way or without thinking properly, and I’ll want to change it. But it was great for me as well to do the challenge because it just makes you realize that actually, people connect with you when you are talking normally. And it makes people feel much more bonded to you, doesn’t it?
Lisette: Especially when you make mistakes. I think everybody relates to the vulnerability. I mean I certainly do [laughs].
Lisette: I certainly made a number of mistakes. Yeah, okay, I can see it. And Facebook live is also… I mean 10 percent of the world’s population is on Facebook. It’s like a huge amount of people. So it’s not like you’re just talking to small groups. Although when you’re in the cocoon, you’re in the cocoon. I love the name.
Erin: Thank you. Yeah, it’s lovely. And it’s all about being in this safe place where you can grow and turn into a butterly. So that was the analogy.
Lisette: So women will stop their careers in order to have children, in order to take care of the children. This is usually what happens. And then they don’t want to go back. Even though they may love their career, but the career doesn’t offer the flexibility that they need in order to take care of the children. I’m not a mom. Even though I’m a woman, I’m not a mom. But what do we do in the past? Was it then women just stayed home and took care of the kids? And then what?
Erin: I know. I think a lot has changed. And I think that women are much more empowered these days. And they want to have something for themselves. Then they want to make a change in the world. And they want to have a career. And I don’t know. Maybe in the past, yes, the women stayed at home, and that was what was the norm was. So it was kind of accepted that that’s what you did. Whereas now, we know that it doesn’t have to be like that. And I think there are a lot of women who actually also find themselves in a situation where they would really love to go back to their full-time job. And they literally… Even they can’t afford to go back to work because the cost of childcare here in the U.K. (I don’t know what it’s like in America) is so high that they say that for someone with two children under five years old… I think this is right. You have to be earning at least 40,000 pounds a year to be able to cover the cost of their childcare. And I think the average salary in the U.K. is 26,000. So it’s kind of ridiculous. So to be able to actually go back to work, you might only be covering the cost of having your kids in childcare. You might not actually be taking home any more money. So it becomes a matter that some women have been forced out of their careers because of this.
Lisette: Wow! And what I wonder is what is preventing companies from offering flexibility? Because we’ve got this huge workforce out there. I mean it’s 50 percent of the population. And why would you limit? I just don’t understand why companies would limit that just because women need flexibility. Is it so much flexibility?
Erin: I know. I know. I mean I know there are so many people doing great campaigning to get this changed. And definitely, with remote working and things being more online, I think it’s getting there very slowly. It would be great if it could speed up. But I think companies are now coming round to the fact that you can work from home one or two days a week so that you can still pick up your kids, and then you just work again in the evening. Things of those kinds wouldn’t have been possible years ago, but now they are. So I think it is gradually filtering in. But what’s great is that all these women that can’t go back to those roles are now setting up amazing businesses and contributing to the economy in a completely different way.
Lisette: Totally. So is there a type of business that people tend to set up? Or is it all over the map?
Erin: All over the map, yeah, completely. I mean I’ve been meaning to set up some kind of survey. And I literally don’t know where to start because any of the kind of categories that you look at online, business categories, people don’t really fit into those categories. My business doesn’t really fit into one of those categories now. The old school like travel, marketing, all things of those kinds, I mean where does online community come in? But yeah. So I mean there are people in my network who have set up recruitment agencies. There are people that make their own products like dog grooming products, make their own jewelry, make their own clothes, run online shops, make food products. I mean there is just such a wide range. And it’s not all small kitchen table businesses. We’re talking people with big ambitions here as well. So it’s a fantastic mix.
Lisette: So then what is hard for moms? What do you advise for moms when they’re first starting out and they’re first starting to think about running an online business? Where would you start?
Erin: I think it’s really important to surround yourself with people that get it. I think that when you’re starting your own business, there are going to be a lot of people who are going to be negative about it because a lot of people are not risk-takers, and they might think that it’s a real risk you’re starting your own business and it’s not the norm. So you need to find your tribe. You need to find your network. And that’s why I created Making Mumpreneurs as well so that people know that there’s somewhere they can go online. But also, face-to-face networking is so important. And find out in your area what’s going on. And if there’s not a networking group, then why not set one up? I mean that’s what we did [inaudible – 13:29]. I met one of the mums, and we thought it would be really nice to get a few people together. And we would have 30 people every meeting.
So just go out there and be active and put yourself out there because I think loneliness is one of the major things. I mean there’s been an article lately. About 92 percent of mums in the U.K. feel lonely, which is really shocking and very sad. So you’ve got mums that are already feeling a bit lonely and a bit worried about other people judging the way that they’re parenting. And then if those mums are then setting up businesses, when you set up your own business, you’re isolated even further. So it’s really important that you do find a group of people that you can relate to and that can help you through because we all know running a business is a roller coaster. And you need someone to hold your hand sometimes.
Lisette: Right, especially when you have parents and close friends saying, “What are you doing? This is crazy [laughs].” Feeding the self-doubt that is always there, especially as an entrepreneur.
Erin: Absolutely. Feeding the self-doubt, that’s a brilliant phrase because that is exactly… You have all these doubts in your head. Of course, you do. You’re calculating all the time is this the right decision, is this the right decision. And if you’ve got negative people saying an off-the-cuff remark, then you’re just going to completely crumble, aren’t you? And it’s hard. And setting up your own business around family life is not easy, but the rewards are huge, you know? Being able to pick my kids up from school, I’ve got my son’s sports day on Friday. And although yes, it means I need to shuffle my work schedule, I don’t have to [inaudible – 15:25] it to anyone else. I don’t have to feel really uncomfortable about saying to my boss like, “Can I…? Can I…?” I mean the sports day is all morning, you know? And what kind of job could you say I [inaudible – 15:36] morning so I can go to my kids’ sports day?
So the rewards of being able to work for yourself in that situation are amazing. But it’s not easy. And there are some days where you feel like you’re just peddling and peddling and peddling and there isn’t anything that is actually going to happen. So yeah, it’s hard.
Lisette: Right, yeah. It’s hard without children setting up your own business [laughs].
Lisette: But you said something really interesting. You said setting up your business around your family life. And I suppose that is probably the number one thing that people are struggling with. So I want to just dive into that a little bit because I don’t know. It’s just me and my neighbor cat that comes over to visit [inaudible – 16:16] so easy. Describe a little bit about what that looks like.
Erin: I hope you met Timothy Ferriss, the four-hour work week.
Lisette: Yeah, definitely.
Erin: I love that book. And that really, really made me think. And it is this fact that we’re so used to working 9:00 to 5:00 or 9:00 to 8:00. But this whole 9:00 to 5:00 mentality, when in fact with the digital age now, it doesn’t have to be like that at all. So I drop my kids off at school. I come back at 9 o’clock. And then I’ve got 12:30 when I go and pick up my younger son at 1 o’clock. And then I’ve got him for the afternoon. And then I pick up my other son at 3:30, do dinner time, bed time. And then I might go back online and do some more work from 8 o’clock till 10 o’clock.
So it’s quite bitty in terms of getting things done, but it’s completely possible. And I think that’s one thing that I’ve been thinking about recently, one of the biggest challenges being a mumpreneur is having to constantly put things down. So you’ve just got into the work mode. You’re going through your to-do list. You’re getting [loads – 17:28] done. Yes, I know what I need to do now. And then it’s like, “Uh-oh, it’s 12:30. I’ve got to put everything done.” Then you’re in mum mode, and you’re being a parent. And you’re doing all those things that you need to do. And then the next day you drop the kids off at school. You’re pretty exhausted just from doing the school run. And then you have to [inaudible – 17:46] everything up again and start again. And that’s really hard. And I think it has to be very resilient to keep doing that because we all know that when you get into the flow of work, you can just be so productive. And sometimes that flow can last for days but not when you’re having to put everything down after three hours. And then you can’t actually do any more for the rest of the day because you’ve got your other commitments. So that’s a real challenge.
Lisette: Yeah. And I would think the other side of that is if you work straight through, I mean the whole 9:00 to 5:00 schedule of working during that particular, eight-hour time period can also be highly unproductive. And some days you just can’t get into it. And then you’re forced to sit there for the rest of the day trying. I mean I’ve done that in my own home office. Some days you’re like, “I really have to get through this.” And it takes three hours to do something that should only take 30 minutes. But yeah, we’re not that productive.
Erin: That’s totally what I find when I go to a coffee shop. I can get so much work done in 90 minutes of pure, focused time. Like you say, sometimes you can have a whole work day, and you’re not in the zone, and it’s just not flowing. I think that’s the other thing that as a mum, running her own business, you have to really get used to working in short bursts and being really super productive in that time.
Lisette: Yeah, timeboxing things. And I can imagine that that’s a skill that also grows over time when you think like, “Okay, I’ve got from 9:00 to 12:30. Let’s get to it.” And then sort of get used to boxing the time in that way. I can imagine.
Lisette: Let’s keep on this productivity theme. What about productivity hacks that work for you? So we’ve got the timeboxing. And is there anything else that you use? Are there tools or tricks or things that you use for your own productivity?
Erin: I love writing to-do lists. Literally, I have a notebook. I have an actual notebook. I’ve tried writing notes on my smartphone. It’s just not the same when you are typing it into your phone. So I’ve got an actual notebook that I write down my to-do’s. And if I didn’t do that, I would have seriously forgotten them because my brain is really so fast all the time. And then it’s so distracted with other things. If I don’t write it down, it’s gone. So I try and prioritize my to-do lists. And every day I look at it again. And it’s so funny, isn’t it, how you write down what you really need to do. And then two days later, you look at the list and you think, “I don’t really need to do that anymore.” It’s as if I’m constantly re-evaluating what’s actually important. But I mean one of my… And I do… I have used things like Asana. I do some virtual assistant work on the side as well. So I use that with my client. And that’s really useful to kind of keep track of what tasks I need to do for her. But in terms of saving time, I absolutely love Buffer for my social media, buffer.com. And with that, I can schedule all my… I’ve got multiple Facebook pages, Twitter pages, LinkedIn, Instagram. And I love the fact that I can literally sit down for like an hour and schedule latest stuff and also use the content feed. So you print in relevant things like entrepreneur or inc., that kind of thing. And then it will bring up relevant articles. So you know that you can go to Buffer and see all these things that are going to be of really useful value to your database. So I love using that to save me a lot of time. And then during the week, obviously, I’m constantly on social media. But at least I know there are articles going out every day that people are going to find helpful.
Lisette: Yeah, indeed. Yeah, I love the scheduling. A lot of people are opposed to the automation of that. But I love it. I think it saves so much time. And I’m on social media anyway. I just don’t want to have to do the grunt work by hand. But I’m there. I know some of it is automated. But I am there behind the… yeah.
Erin: Totally. And then it gives you more time to do the engagement side of things, you know? So you know the stuff is going out, but you can be there in person to actually engage with people.
Lisette: Are there downsides of becoming a mumpreneur?
Erin: I think it doesn’t suit everyone. Like I said, it can be very lonely, depending on what kind of business you’re going to set up. So I don’t think it suits everyone. And also, financially as well, I think this is [inaudible – 22:42] advice I would give. You have to be really realistic about the financial aspect of it. And this completely depends on the type of business, absolutely. But if you’re working 15 hours a week rather than 40, then you’ve got to accept that maybe you’re not going to be earning the same salary that you were when you were in a professional career. And obviously, there are some people that are, and that’s amazing. But I think most of us, is it a bit of a sacrifice that you’re trying to build a business. And you might not be able to do it on the same salary that you were before. So financially, it can be really hard. But like I said, it’s this whole thing of what is your why. And if your why is to spend time with the kids while they’re young and build a business during that time and then hopefully, as time goes on, the business starts making more money, that’s the dream really. That’s the goal.
Lisette: And I can imagine that especially, if you want to go back to work after, if you want to go back into the office after your kids are at a certain age – I don’t know what age that would be – having built a business is great credentials, of course. It keeps you relevant and modern and in the time. And it would probably be easier to go back and go back to a career, I suppose.
Erin: Well, and I think as an entrepreneur, you are everything. You do the finance. You do the marketing. You do the strategy. [inaudible – 24:18] so much experience. And for me, the thing that I love about being an entrepreneur and a solopreneur is the opportunity. I feel like there are always other things that you can be doing. There are so many ideas out there. There are so many ways to start a business. They talk a lot about multiple income streams, and that’s the way forward. And I think as an entrepreneur, you might have a business idea and you might work on the business for a year or two and decide, “You know what? This isn’t going to work out.” And that is fine. That is not failing. That is learning and growing because you’re in the situation you’re in and you are learning all these things. And you can go and try another business. So I mean for me, I hope that I will always be able to work for myself. But yeah, absolutely, if you decided that it wasn’t for you, all the skills that you’ve learned would just be so valuable in an office or corporate environment.
Lisette: Yeah, indeed. If I think back in my past of all the failures that I’ve had, the things that have crashed and burned, I still use those skills that I gained crashing and burning [laughs] and moving forward. I mean you don’t know it at the time. You don’t know how it’s going to come in useful at the time. But the resilience does build character. And there are always some great stories [of parties – 25:37]. At the very least, there are some good stories behind it.
So let’s see. I want to give an opportunity to talk about favorite tools. You talked about buffer and your to-do list. Are there any other favorite tools? Zoom? You said you mentioned it before. We started [inaudible – 25:53] using Zoom.
Erin: Yes, just starting to use Zoom, yeah. And things like apps. I’ve got an app, 1Tap Receipts, where you can just take a picture of your receipts on your phone. I love the fact that I am completely paperless, apart from my Notepad. And that’s one thing about remote working. And I don’t need an office and a filing cabinet. I don’t need that. Everything is on the cloud. And what I love about the idea of being a digital nomad is that all you need is your laptop, your Notepads, and your smartphone, and you’re running a business. So I try and do as much as I can to continue that and to find apps and software that is going to make my life easier.
Lisette: Yeah, there’s so much out there. It’s so great to go. I’m a tool junkie, so people send me stuff all the time. I totally love it. Are there any dads in the community?
Erin: Well, interestingly, my husband has now become a dadpreneur [chuckles].
Erin: Yeah. In October, he decided that he really wanted to see the kids before they grew up. He was working away, traveling a lot. And with our circumstances, we spent a year in Abu Dhabi for his job as a family. And it was really, really tough for all of us. And when we came back, it was kind of a turning point thinking what do we want out of life. And he always wanted to try and run his own business. So we were like, “Now is the time.” So we’re both working for ourselves. He is a dadpreneur, and he is absolutely loving being able to pick the kids up. He’ll take the little one to the park and have a teddy bears’ picnic and then come back, and we’ll swap over and he’ll work. So it’s really wonderful. Obviously, financially, this is all a bit scary [inaudible – 27:45] both working for ourselves.
But yeah, I have met quite a few dadpreneurs. And there’s also a great community called parent accelerator community, parentpreneur accelerator community. So there are these groups all over the place, and it’s amazing. And there are all of these people that are trying really hard to build businesses around their families.
Lisette: I love it. I think it’s such a great opportunity. I mean I always felt it was such a shame. I had a friend who wanted to go back to work but couldn’t because she wanted to take care of her children and be there for her children. It seems such a shame that we can’t make that work in this day and age. So companies, if you’re out there listening, it’s time to implement your flexible work programs. Otherwise, your awesome women that are working for you are going to go become mumpreneurs on their own. And you’re going to lose all that talent. That just seems to be the way it’s going. But of course I’m highly biased. But that’s why people don’t listen to… people listen to the show because we’re all for remote work over here.
A couple of more questions. One is what is The Kids’ Nature Shop.
Erin: The Kids’ Nature Shop was a project with my mum, Sue Thomas, who you interviewed before. She writes a lot about nature and the digital age. And we’re talking a lot about kids and getting kids out into nature. And she realized that in all the research she’s been doing, she hasn’t seen any kind of online store that is just focused on kids’ nature and products to get the kids out into nature. So my mum is very techie. And she said, “Why don’t we set up an online shop together?” And with my networks of mums and things like that, it’d be great. So it was a real learning curve. And we set up an Amazon Associates store to sell the products. It’s been hard. And this has been the thing about a massive, steep learning curve for both of us because what we didn’t really think about because we just kind of thought, “Oh, this is great. Let’s do it together. It could be something… Well, we’ll do it together and we’ll learn.” But of course the products that we were selling or are selling are like 10 pounds, for example. And so the commission that we get on that is like 40 pounds. And you need a hell of a lot of [inaudible – 30:11] to make that kind of model actually bring in money. And it was to the point where we were spending money on advertising and thinking, “How are we ever going to make this money back?” And it’s still out there, the kidsnatureshop.com. And we get great feedback from people. People love the idea. But because we’re not doing our own products, we’re doing on Amazon Affiliates store, we’ve realized very quickly that to get [inaudible – 30:42] would need a huge investment in marketing and advertising. And we don’t have the money to invest in that. And this is one of those. We’ve learned loads of great things, but we’re not sure that it’s sustainable.
Lisette: Right. But the idea is great. I mean I was just spending time with my niece over the weekend, and she’s three. And we love running around outside and chasing each other. And then at some point, she wants to sit down and she loves ducks. And so she asked, “Can we look at the ducks on your phone, please?” But what I noticed is she discovered where the videos are, so smart. I mean they’re just so smart. She discovered where the videos are. And then she watches the duck videos and turns into a total zombie. And I think, “Oh, my God! I’ve got to just hide this thing,” because we were having so much fun out playing with nothing outside. And then, all of a sudden… And I thought, “Oh, my God! It’s…” I’m also a zombie when I’m on my phone. So I can only imagine that as a mom, you want to be really careful about…
Erin: And this is what is so difficult because, you know, my husband and I work on our phones. And the kids are like, “Can I play with your phone? Can I play with your phone?” And they’re going to grow up thinking that it’s perfectly acceptable to be on your phone all the time. And we don’t want them to grow up like that. But it’s very hard when [crosstalk – 31:57].
Erin: So you have all these good intentions of setting limits. And right, we’re not going to have our phones at this point, but you’re running a business. So you hear [a ping – 32:08] and you’re like, “Is that somebody ordering something?” So it is hard. But yeah. I mean the idea of The Kids’ Nature Shop, there are all these amazing products, snail worlds and worm worlds, where you literally… I mean there are kids that absolutely love it. You get a couple of snails from the garden, you make that habitat, and you just sit and watch them. And then you can just release them back into the wild. And you get to see things close up. And the kids do really engage with this.
Lisette: Yeah, far more interesting than cartoon ducks on a phone.
Lisette: They all have their phone addictions later in life [laughs]. Okay, so very last question, which is very easy, which is what is the best way to get in touch with you if people want to know more? Obviously, makingmumpreneurs.com.
Erin: I’m on Facebook as well, makingmumpreneurs on Twitter @erinthomaswong. And people are welcomed to contact me through there. And I’d love to connect. Especially, if there are any mumpreneurs out there who would really like to feel part of a supportive, online community, please do get in touch.
Lisette: If you get a mad rush of moms coming your way, then please let me know. I’d be so happy.
Erin: I will.
Lisette: It sounds like something that should happen after people listen to this podcast. So great, thank you so much for your time today. And until next time, everybody, be powerful.
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