Rohan Smith on the Collaboration Superpowers podcast

ROHAN SMITH is a Jamaican born software developer living in Trinidad & Tobago. He is an entrepreneur at heart and founder of the Remote Software Developer Community where he helps software developers make the transition to remote work. He is a remote software developer at Bluespark, a distributed web development company, where he works on interesting and innovative projects using Drupal and open source software. He is a remote work enthusiast and he’s always ready to advocate its benefits.



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Original transcript

Lisette: Great. So we’re live. So welcome everybody to this remote interview. My name is Lisette and I’m interviewing people and companies doing great things remotely. And today on the line, all the way from Trinidad and Tobago, I have Rohan Smith. Rohan, welcome, thanks for being here.

Rohan: Thanks for having me.

Lisette: You’re a software developer. And the way that I know you is that you hosted the Remote Working Conference, an online conference which was very successful and really fun to watch and participate in. So it’s weird. I feel like I already know you. This is the first time we’re speaking since I saw you in that conference. That was cool. You’re also the facilitator of a Facebook group called Remote Software Developers [crosstalk – 00:42] and ask you a little bit about why you started that and about the conference too. But let’s start with your virtual office. What does your virtual office look like?

Rohan: My virtual office is pretty simple. It’s an exrtra room in my home. And I’ve set up a desk. I’m a software developer, so I have an extra screen. I work with my MacBook Pro. I just have my computer. I don’t have an extra keyboard. [inaudible – 01:16] laptop. However, I have an extra microphone connected to a mixer. I got it for the conference. So I have some technical audio stuff going on right there. But otherwise, it’s very simple.

I also have a mobile Wi-Fi device. It serves two purposes. It’s my backup Wi-Fi just in case network goes down, which happens. And it’s also just in case I need to leave the office and I want to go out. I [inaudible – 01:57] have Wi-Fi.

Lisette: Yeah, these mobile routers there, they save the day sometimes. [inaudible – 02:07] the fastest but it’s better than no Wi-Fi. That’s for sure.

Rohan: Right, exactly.

Lisette: Do you work as a freelancer? Or do you work on a team? What is your remote working situation?

Rohan: Right now I work as a software developer for Bluespark. That’s They are a software development agency. They make websites primarily. I make websites for them using Drupal content management system. We have some pretty good clients. [inaudible – 02:43] and so on. Some really good, advanced work [inaudible – 02:49]. And that’s where I do my primary work. Every now and then, someone might ask me to work on a smart project. My primary work is on [inaudible – 03:00].

Lisette: And does everybody in the company work remotely?

Rohan: Yes, it’s a fully distributed company, starting from Spain, Mexico, Haiti, U.S., Canada [inaudible – 03:16].

Lisette: And why fully distributed? Was there a particular reason to go remote for this company?

Rohan: I’m not quite too sure. We are almost a year now. But I chose fully distributed company because when I decided to go remote, I had worked with companies that weren’t fully distributed. But I’ve always felt like a third leg. I didn’t feel like I was a part of the company. So whenever I looked for jobs, I specifically looked for fully distributed companies. And that’s where I feel most valued as a remote worker.

Lisette: I can imagine that levels the playing field for all the people working at the company. You’re all remote. So there’s no team. There’s no us versus them. That’s very wise. That’s very smart to do that way.

Now I have to ask about the time zone difference. That sounds like you guys have quite a time zone spread. How do you guys manage that?

Rohan: There’s like a power hour, somewhere around 10:00 Eastern. That’s when most of us would meet up. We have our meeting between 10:00 and 12:00. I think that’s late evening for them. So generally, after that meeting, [inaudible – 04:39]. But they’re generally up from 3 p.m. Eastern [inaudible – 04:45] work. And that stretches over to people who’d be there up to 10 p.m. Eastern. So it depends on where you are and when do you like to work.

Lisette: So you guys have these overlap hours where all the meetings and the interaction are. And the rest of the time, you’re working separately on your own, individual task or with certain people that are more in your time zone, I assume.

Rohan: Right. And [inaudible – 05:12] sometimes [inaudible] morning person. I will be up at 5 for some times, and I use that time to speak to the guys in Europe. So it doesn’t really prevent work. And another time, I might be up at 10:00 and there’s someone else in my time zone who’s up. So it works.

Lisette: They’re really lucky. You’re such a morning person. 5 a.m., that’s not [crosstalk – 05:45] it’s normal but it’s not common.

Rohan: Yeah.

Lisette: How do you guys communicate mostly? What kind of tools are you using to talk to each other?

Rohan: We do Google Hangouts. We have different types of meetings. The companies are under a management system called Holacracy. [inaudible – 06:12] have different circles. So you have a circle that contains all the [inaudible – 06:17] services, developer and designer and so on. And we meet once a week, and that’s about 18 people. That’s [inaudible – 06:28]. And then there’s a developer meetup that happens like three times a week. [inaudible – 06:35] as well and just for half hour. We communicate generally over Google Hangouts. And we have HipChat for our daily back and forth and email every now and then.

Lisette: Email feels so old-fashioned [crosstalk – 06:53] [laughs] with the cool group chat systems. I’m curious about the use of video. A lot of people don’t like using video. But if you’re using Hangouts and you can see each other, is that right?

Rohan: Yeah. There are 18 video streams that [inaudible – 07:11]. That’s how we do it. We use videos all the time. If you’re [inaudible – 07:20] something, probably having breakfast or something, [inaudible – 07:23]. Generally, we use video.

Lisette: Do you actually use the video while you’re working? Or is it just during meetings?

Rohan: No, just during meetings. Generally, no one knows where you are. What we tend to do, we have like a general chat to say if you’re going away, you message in chat to say, “Hey, I’ll be out for the next six hours, for the next hour. I’m going to run an errand,” and so on. So people know that okay, I can’t contact Rohan [inaudible – 07:55] because he’s out. So that’s pretty much how we operate.

Lisette: And how do you know what each other are doing throughout the day as a team?

Rohan: Bluespark is a group of senior developers. Unless we’re working on a particular project together, most people tend to have project for themselves. There are projects that have two or three people. But we’re mostly independent in terms of what we do on our own. Whenever we have issues, we communicate with each other. But we’d go there and get the job done and then return. Unless there is a need for communication, which happens… And we’ll do that through the group chats.  We tend to go off and work. And you’ll see the [inaudible – 08:55] by… We use what we call Git [inaudible – 08:59]. So you’ll see the [inaudible] in Git. You can review each other’s code. And that all comes to HipChat. So it’s a pretty efficient workspace. Even though I say we go off and do things, there’s a lot of communication happening [inaudible – 09:19].

Lisette: What’s something that you guys really struggle with? What’s really hard for your team in particular? Clearly, it’s working. [inaudible – 09:30]. But every team has something that is like, “Oh, this is so hard.” What is that hard for you?

Rohan: I can’t speak for team, but for me, I guess [inaudible – 09:43] efficiency. [inaudible – 09:48] point where you’re given a set job to get done. In an office, all you need to do is show up. But in a remote environment, you have to produce results. As flexible as the work schedule might be, if I had something to do today… Say I had to go grocery shopping and I end up spending half the day shopping, I have to make up for that time because you’re expecting a certain amount of output from a remote worker. [inaudible – 10:21], but it’s a level of output. If you can produce that output, then it becomes a struggle on your side. And you end up sometimes having to work extra hours just to fill up the time that you lost doing something else.

Lisette: Yeah, I can imagine. What I hear from a lot of remote workers is that because it’s results-based – i.e. you’re getting judged on what you’re producing – a lot of people work too much [crosstalk – 10:59]. So what do you do for yourself to keep it from being 24/7? Because you’ve got all these time zones. You could be working all the time and somebody would respond.

Rohan: That’s true. I try as much as possible to set for myself working hours. I’m a morning person. I’m up from 5:00. I work before my wife and my son get up. And when they get up, I [inaudible – 11:33] school, get back, start working again. And when my wife goes out to work, [inaudible – 11:42], that’s when I try to cut off from my work. [inaudible – 11:46] in the morning. And if there’s something really important I need to do, I [inaudible – 11:54] some hours in [inaudible] so I can get enough sleep [inaudible] again. I try to limit it as much around those times as possible. [inaudible – 12:08].

Lisette: So putting boundaries in place for yourself like okay, when your wife gets home, that’s time for hanging out together and spending time with the family. That makes sense. It’s so hard for people to disconnect though. That’s why I always specifically ask about this in particular. What’s funny is most managers are afraid that when they let their employees work remotely, they’re not going to work enough. They do it because they want to slack off. And what I find is absolutely the opposite is true. Most people are working too much.

Rohan: Yeah. What I find, I think remote work attracts a type of people, a type of person. Someone who’s looking for remote work is generally someone who knows they can work remotely and wants that freedom to gain a time when they feel like putting their time in. [inaudible – 13:00] ends up being more than [inaudible] expected.

Lisette: So funny. One of the people I interviewed said, “I think remote worker is just a disguise for workaholics.” Actually, you might be right. It’s so much nicer to call yourself remote worker instead of workaholic.

             I want to ask about your involvement in this remote working conference and this Facebook group of remote software developers. What drew you to these projects?

Rohan: I’m Jamaican. I was born in Jamaica. I’ve been here in Trinidad and Tobago for three plus years. I had to move to Tobago because I got mired in Jamaica. I used to do freelance back in Jamaica. But my wife had to come back to Tobago and we needed to move. So I started to look for opportunities online because I’m saying, “Okay, I’m not sure what type of work will be available here.” And I’m in the Tobago part of Trinidad and Tobago. The population here is 50,000.

Lisette: Not a lot of remote [crosstalk – 14:21].

Rohan: Right. I [inaudible] software companies in Tobago. Those will be in Trinidad which is bigger. Its population is a million or something. So being in Tobago, I began to think, “What would I do here in Tobago as a freelancer?” So that led me online. I started looking for online work. I had a friend who actually got some work. So I [inaudible – 14:49] that myself. And I got through. I got a remote job, and I was able to migrate over here to Tobago.

Even after I got that first job, I went through a number of opportunities. I left one company to another to another. And I realized that I’ve never been out of work for more than a month. I could actually [inaudible – 15:17] jobs remotely without much problem. And I had friends who wanted to go remote but they were scared. They weren’t sure if it would work. So I started helping people one-on-one to say, “Let me help you get a remote job.” And I had a few friends who got jobs. So I said, “Hey, I probably could do this for you.” So I started a group, started inviting people. [inaudible – 15:49] group. I started sharing tips and tricks on how to get remote work and how to thrive in remote environment. And I made it specifically for software developers because that’s who I am and that’s how I know how to do it. And I’ve had a number of people message me and say, “Hey, Rohan, this stuff you showed me, I used it and I got a job.” And I realize it’s not as hard as it might seem on the outside once you know exactly how to do it. So what I try to do now is to help software developers prepare themselves for remote work.

Lisette: So what are the tips you give them? I’ve got to know. What are some of the common things that you’re saying over and over and over again to people?

Rohan: Generally, most software developers, even the great ones, have horrible résumés. And as a remote worker, if you’re applying for jobs, you [inaudible – 16:52] chances to present yourself. And for software developers, [inaudible – 16:57] résumé that says, “Hey, I [inaudible – 16:59].” And that includes having all the experiences listed correctly, have your online presence on places like Stack Overflow, GitHub, [inaudible – 17:14] portfolio of [inaudible] example sites or projects you’ve worked on. [inaudible – 17:22] presents online is a big factor in remote working because it shows that you can work online, right?

Lisette: Yeah.

Rohan: Yeah, that’s it, a number of things, just applications, strategies, how to know where to apply, who to apply to. A lot of developers aren’t sure at what level they are. So they’re saying, “Okay, do I apply to Google or [inaudible – 17:53]?” So it’s just helping you gauge who you are and how to represent yourself best in the remote working space and just to give you [inaudible – 18:10] tips. I even give interviewing tips [inaudible] interview, like how to [inaudible – 18:20] hiring manager or whoever is interviewing you. Give them a great impression or first impression of you. And funny enough, a lot of people don’t know these simple things. It seems like black magic but it’s pretty simple. But if you don’t know them, you won’t get through when you’re trying to apply for work online.

Lisette: So can I ask a specific interview tip? If you’re going to get an interview online, what’s something that somebody should definitely…? because people ask me this all the time. And for me, I always say turn your video on, first of all, because they’re going to probably do a video interview. But I always tell people pay attention to your background a little bit. I saw this webinar and this guy was giving a webinar. And he had a turquoise water bed in the background in a super messy room. I was so distracted. I didn’t hear anything he said. I was so distracted by trying to figure out what is going on. And there are people walking back and forth. And I just thought it’s crazy. For a job interview, I would do something different. But I don’t know. Are those the kind of tips you give people?

Rohan: I give more what to say, how to prepare for interview. The first thing I always say is prepare questions to ask. An interview [inaudible – 19:36] you trying to figure out if you want to work there as them trying to figure out they want to hire you. In fact, I wrote an article. I could give you the link to post probably [inaudible – 19:49]. I think there are 15 tricky questions to ask your interviewer.

Lisette: Brilliant. I would love to see that. I would love to see that. I’ve interviewed a lot of people for remote teams that I work for. You leave ten minutes in the end if they have any questions. And if they don’t have any questions, I’m always like, “Come on, you can’t think of like one thing to ask.” Have like two or three things. That’s all you need. Show some curiosity.

             So you have a great résumé, some strategies for doing… I wanted to ask what do you think of platforms like Upwork and these kind of things? Are they good for remote developers?

Rohan: I always say there are different types of remote developers. You just need to find out the one that you are. And these are platforms for everybody. For myself, I’m the type of guy who likes full-time work. I like predictability to say okay, I’ll be working with this company for the next year, two years. That’s the type of work I look for. There are some people who don’t really want to be tied down with a full-time job. They want to be able to make some extra cash on the side, to use some of their skills in software development. Then there’s work for them as well. [inaudible – 21:24] Upwork. If you don’t mind work… it’s taking time to build your portfolio on Upwork because starting off as someone who’s used to getting a large income on Upwork, it might be daunting because you have to compete especially as a new starter. You can get [inaudible – 21:51]. If you are someone who doesn’t mind earning small income for a while and then over time build up your experience before you can get large. There are people on Upwork working $100 an hour. So it is possible but it takes time. So it just depends on what you want as a remote worker. And then I’ll direct you to the particular area to go and find the type of work.

Lisette: It’s a really good point, to define why you’re going remote because if you want to go remote because you want to travel, then there are certain jobs that you don’t want to take. Whereas if you want to go remote because you simply want to work from home, then there are other options for you. Or if you want a full-time versus side gig. So that’s a really good point. I think a lot of people don’t spend a lot of time thinking about that.

Rohan: Right. And that’s what I try to do, help people to figure out who they are. The first step is to find out what type of worker are you. And once you figure that out, you’ve already slit the effort in half.

Lisette: Right. I really like this. There’s a platform for everybody. I think that’s true. There’s something out there for everybody. You just have to figure out who your body is first.

Rohan: Exactly.

Lisette: Interesting. So what about productivity tips for yourself? How do you stay motivated throughout the day? Because I’m assuming you work most of the time from your home office. Is that a fair assumption?

Rohan: Yeah, pretty much all the time. I break sometimes and I go outdoors. People always say, “You have the beach so close. You must [crosstalk – 23:30].”

Lisette: [inaudible] tried working from the beach. I always say this to people. It looks really glamorous but you get sand everywhere. The sun is bright. [crosstalk – 23:41]. You can’t really work from the beach.

Rohan: [inaudible – 23:45]. It has to be a really fancy beach that has Wi-Fi and power and everything [inaudible – 23:54]. The beaches I’ve been to, one here, they have Wi-Fi. I’ve never been anywhere [inaudible – 24:03]. So I could only work for a few hours everyday. I use the beach as a means to break up the monotony. It doesn’t have to be the beach if you don’t have a beach where you live. But I get outdoors sometimes just to get myself refreshed, so to speak. And that helps with my productivity as well. Sometimes [inaudible – 24:31]. I go just in the park. It depends on how I’m feeling for that day. So that could be a productivity tip. Just switch things up. I know some people have coffee shops. We don’t have much coffee shops here in Tobago. Just find new spaces and do work. Utilize your freedom for being remote.

Lisette: Yeah, take advantage of it, indeed.

Rohan: Yeah.

Lisette: So what are some of the misconceptions that people have run into? You must have all these people coming. They want to work remotely because they want to be in their pajamas all day or it seems so easy to work. And I always think it’s not easy. You’re still doing work. [crosstalk – 25:18]. Do you run into misconceptions from people a lot?

Rohan: Yeah, definitely. I have people who pretty much think you sit home all day and just relax. [inaudible – 25:35] remote workers are workaholics. They’re working all the time. And it’s hard to sometimes separate the work from life. When you’re at work in a bricks-and-mortar place, when you leave, you can leave work there. But when you are here, you are tempted to… Especially, if you love what you do, [inaudible – 26:01] always go back in and check. Last night I was running a [inaudible – 26:08] migration. And that takes hours to complete. Last night, I just kept coming in my office to check if it was complete. Early in the morning, you get to check if it’s complete. When you’re not at work, you have to come back and check because work [is a set – 26:28] period of time and you can leave work at work. But if you love what you do, you’re going to always be tempted to come back into the office. So it’s a lot of work to be remote.

Lisette: Or you do things like what I do. I am like, “Oh, I just need to check this one thing.” And then [three hours – 26:48] later, you’re like, “Oh, man, I wasn’t supposed to be online.”

Rohan: Yeah.

Lisette: Totally addicting. Oh, funny. So could you ever go back to working in a fixed location?

Rohan: For [inaudible – 27:06].

Lisette: For enough money, maybe.

Rohan: [laughs]

Lisette: [inaudible – 27:11].

Rohan: [inaudible] And even then, I’d still have to consider it because I can’t see myself going back. And that’s the thing. I’ve never really been an office person. I was freelance before, but it wasn’t necessarily remote because I was working with clients. So it was remote in a sense because you never have the [client’s office – 27:41]. So I was freelancer and I kind of worked from home. I really never have worked non-remote before. So I could never see myself working in office.

Lisette: Yeah, it seems once you’ve had the taste of freedom, it’s really hard to go back. I call them day prisons now. I shouldn’t do that [crosstalk – 28:06] just seems like, “Oh, it’s a day prison.” [laughs] Funny.

             We’re reaching the end of the time. I could go on forever. You say you have a Holacracy system, which is very interesting. So how does management work then? Especially remotely, in this sort of system, what is virtual team management? What does that look like for you guys?

Rohan: It’s so interesting because we were just talking about Holacracy today in a meeting. One of the primary goals is to hire really good people. And once you hire good people, then management becomes less of a problem. So your hiring process has to be very… you have to be detailed in what you need, and then you have to set the culture that encourages good people to stay. Our management culture is such that most people are generally senior developers. We interact with project managers, and that’s pretty much our interaction with management. There are people who play the role as managers, so to speak.

Lisette: But because of Holacracy, the idea is that there are no managers. It’s a flat system. Everybody is equal.

Rohan: It’s not strictly flat. We have our circles. So what tends to happen is that there are people who fall in different circles. I’m a developer. I’m in the professional services circle. Then there’s the management circle or governance. And then there is Bluespark, which is the company circle. And they discuss Bluespark related issues. And people are assigned roles in these circles. So I could at one point be assigned a role in governance as a developer, but it just depends on what role you’re playing at a time.

Lisette: Different people could have different roles. So you could have one role in one circle but another [crosstalk – 30:28].

Rohan: That’s correct.

Lisette: Oh, I love it.

Rohan: It’s interesting. It’s not really a manager-employee type of a relationship. So I’ve never been given instructions from managers so to speak. The project manager works with the clients. The project manager creates the tasks or items, and you as a developer work on them. And you might have to interact with the client in a meeting. That’s pretty much how as a developer I work. We do get to contribute to company policies. So we could raise item that we think things should be run better this way, and then we pass that up to a circle. [inaudible – 31:16] in circle and then we discuss it. And they’ll come back with results. So it’s pretty interesting.

I’d say I’ve never had the opportunity to work like this before. And I actually prefer this. It makes it very transparent. And Bluespark itself is a transparent company. So it’s a really great environment to work in. I [crosstalk – 31:41].

Lisette: Yeah, really sounds like it. I like that you say when you hire good people, management becomes less of an issue. I think that’s really smart. It’s very hard to hire good people though. Everybody [crosstalk – 31:56] best behavior in the beginning and then… And also personality types. I worked on a team where we hired somebody. Great person, I liked him personally, but just didn’t quite fit socially on the team. It just wasn’t working, and nobody could’ve predicted that in the beginning. He was qualified, nice, all that thing, just didn’t fit.

             How do you guys give each other feedback? Are there retrospectives? Are there reviews? Is there any feedback loop [crosstalk – 32:32]?

Rohan: General feedback happens during our meetings. I don’t think we have a specific [inaudible – 32:43] Bluespark. We don’t have a specific time for feedback per se. But we have time to raise issues in our professional services meetings. In the Holacracy framework, there is a specific part in the meetings for you to raise agenda items. So anyone can raise it. So if you have an issue and you want to give feedback or contribute in any way, you can raise an issue, an agenda item, and it is discussed. So we have avenues to facilitate that type of feedback.

Lisette: Okay. I really like it. It’s interesting. I haven’t ever spoken with a company that practices Holacracy. I’ve heard about it, of course. But super interesting system.

             Before the time runs out, I really want to make sure asking the right questions. What should people think about? We’ve kind of touched on this. But before we’re going remote, what should people think about…? Before, you’ve got the why. You think about the why of going remote. But are there other things you say, okay, make sure to think about this. You have to have a good Internet connection. That’s probably a standard. Or think about the equipment or think about where you’re going to be working. What should people think about before they start?

Rohan: I want to get from the avenue of think about yourself. What do you want? In terms of your professional goals, what do you want to see yourself? I think that’s a question that someone wanting to go remote needs to ask themself because remote work is more than just I’m working at home in my underpants. It’s a freedom. I want for myself the ability to be able to go to my kid’s soccer practice in the evening. I want freedom to be able to stop working when I feel tired and go take a nap.

I forgot to mention this. One of the greatest advantages in remote work is the ability to work with great companies. A lot of people say go remote as a company so you can find the greatest employees across the world. I’d say go remote as an employee to find greatest companies because I couldn’t find a company like Bluespark anywhere in my vicinity for a thousand-mile radius probably. To be able to find the best companies, go remote. And I wanted to improve myself professionally, but I still wanted to have the advantage of living in a climate that I like and with friends and family around me, without having to move to San Francisco or New York. And that’s a different struggle in terms of getting visas and all that.

So remote gave me the opportunity to advance professionally while still having my life with my family and my [inaudible – 36:19] intact. And that’s what I wanted for myself. I never wanted to have to migrate to somewhere that’s uncomfortable, just to improve one part, but another part of my life [inaudible – 36:32].

Lisette: Right. [crosstalk – 36:35] people a huge advantage and opportunity to be able to work globally. You can work on the project that you love the most and still stay with your family or in a lovely climate. Right now it’s minus 3 here in the Netherlands with snow on the ground. So yeah, [crosstalk – 36:55] of your 29 degree. Sounds great.

Rohan: And that’s the way all year round, so it’s great.

Lisette: Man, sounds amazing. I have two last questions. I wanted to talk about future remote working conferences [crosstalk – 37:18]. Are you going to do it again?

Rohan: Definitely. First, the remote working conference was a success. We got some really great speakers, some people who are influencers in the world of remote work. And if you want to check out conference, it’s still live. But we had it recorded, You can go there and check out the talks. We had some great speakers as far as India, and we had people from California presenting as well, talking about different aspects. They are designers, developers. They are people from all different aspects of remote work. We had people from We Work Remotely, Buffer, [Ten Up – 38:10], a bunch of other distributed companies sharing the experiences in remote work. And we planned it again sometime this year. We haven’t secured a date as yet, but we will definitely do it in a similar format, having great speakers who will give you some good information on remote work.

Lisette: Yeah, it’s a cool concept. I love the idea of having these conferences online. I’ve been to a ton of conferences where the speakers aren’t that great and the food is not that good and [inaudible – 38:42] time and money getting all the way on the other side of the world to attend a conference that you thought would be really good and then you [crosstalk – 38:49]. These online conferences, what a great opportunity to really converge online with people from everywhere. Super cool.

             If people want to learn more about you and get in touch, what’s the best way to do that?

Rohan: You can get to me through my Facebook group. That’s [inaudible – 39:14]. It’s pretty much discussing remote work tips and so on. I’m on Twitter as well as @frazras. Once you get me there, I’ll respond.

Lisette: Right. It’s funny because most people are like, “Just Google anything about me. We’re all online.”

Rohan: Yeah. I think Rohan Anthony Smith, if you Google that, then you’ll find me.

Lisette: Okay. And I’ll put all of this in the show notes too for people so they don’t have to remember this or listen back. Thank you so much for the time today that you took. I’m really jealous of where you live, sounds exotic and beautiful.

Rohan: Yeah. Just one more thing, I want to give an opportunity for those who are looking to become remote software developers. If you are probably working from an office and want to go remote, I’m starting an online course shortly. So you could go to [inaudible – 40:31] my online course. You can sign up.

Lisette: Oh, man, that’s exciting. I think a lot of people are going to be taking that course because the most popular podcast that I’ve done so far is how do I find a remote job. [crosstalk – 40:46] probably a lot of software developers. That’s an easy one to go remote, as software developer and be remote. I’m not a software developer. I know HTML and that’s about it, so I wouldn’t get very far. But I do have a concept of when you’re looking through the code and you’re looking for commas and semicolons and brackets and stuff, you probably don’t want to be in an open office space. You probably want to be in a place where you can actually concentrate and focus and think. So seems like software development and remote go hand in hand in a lot of cases in terms of getting work done.

Rohan: Yup, very much.

Lisette: Yeah, I can imagine. Great, thanks so much for talking with me today.

Rohan: Thank you for having me.

Lisette: Indeed.



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