Name: Christian Kreutz
Headquarters: Frankfurt, Germany
Superpower: Flattening hierarchies
Christian Kreutz is an author, speaker, strategic advisor and expert in open and social innovation. He is the Director of Crisscrossed, the makers of WE THINQ, social software for change makers. We talk about how to hire remote workers, how to create horizontal organizations with less managers, working with time zones, trust, and the value of minimizing your tools.
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Lisette: Great! So we’re recording. Welcome everybody to this remote interview. My name is Lisette and I’m interviewing people and companies doing great things remotely. And today on the line, I have Christian Kreutz. And Christian, I’m assuming you’re in Germany but I didn’t ask before we started this recording. Where are you from?
Christian: You’re right. I’m assigned to the center of Germany.
Lisette: Okay. Great! And Christian, it says on your LinkedIn profile you’re an author, speaker, strategic adviser, and expert in Open and Social innovations so we’re going to dive into that. Director of Chris Kreutz, and you’ve created a product which is how we met called We Thinq with a Q at the end instead of a K so we’re going to talk about that. But before we get into all of this, let’s start with the first question which is “What does your virtual office look like? What do you need to get your work done?”
Christian: Well to get my work done, I like to work from different locations so my virtual office various kind of tools. I used to have a lot of tools because I love to keep around and have a lot of different. And that’s from the tools. But I’m trying to narrow it down these days to make it easier for me. That said, I work in different locations so I like to work sometimes at home. I have also a co-working office where I work which is in [inaudible—1:23] in Frankfurt which is great and inspiring. And my team colleagues are all distributed so I’m the only one in Frankfurt, so my colleagues are in London and in the Far East and in the US so we work remotely all the time so yeah. Sometimes, not very often, we try to see each other but we try to use various tools to exchange with each other on a daily basis.
Lisette: So did you set up your team remotely on purpose or did it just naturally grow that way? How did the team form?
Christian: Well, it’s interesting I had this conversation a few months ago with ODesk. I got an interview with ODesk just asking me some questions. I don’t know. I find this honestly a lot easier nowadays to find people through the internet than actually locally. It’s a bit of a contradiction because you can walk around locally, you can get in touch with people face to face in a conversation. But in my experience over the years, you can find really, really interesting and inspiring and creative people over the internet for various tasks being developers, marketing experts, and so on. And also, I think Germany is in terms of the internet, not so easy sometimes because you find more let’s say progressive and creative people outside of Germany. Sometimes, I get the feeling so I take heavy use of this platforms, [inaudible—2:52] platform, start with the project, and if it works out pretty good then it turns out to a long term cooperation.
Lisette: And I see you mentioned ODesk. Is that one of the platforms you use a lot?
Christian: Yes. I think now they’ve changed the name. I don’t know the new name.
Lisette: Oh yeah, Upworthy. It’s Upworthy now.
Christian: Upwork, exactly. Yes, I do use that. That was especially in the beginning but now it’s all about personal connections and stuff like that yes. But I like it. I think it’s surprisingly amazing how well it can work to web remotely. I mean I’ve worked with graphic designers for six years I’ve never seen her, and we have a wonderful working relationship.
Lisette: I’m a big fan myself. I’ve used ODesk and Elance before it was Upworthy a lot. And I found it also remarkable the kinds of people that you can find online. The guy that produces this podcast is in fact, I found on Elance. So I want to find out about We Thinq but first while we’re on this topic, I’ve got to ask you in terms of hiring practices when you’re looking for somebody who would be great to work with remotely, what do you look for when you’re on Upworthy or any of these platforms?
Christian: I look most importantly how do they present themselves in the internet. So I think this is for me and entry points for trust. And for instance for programmers, for me, it’s very important that they’re involved on places like Github. So they might have published software codes for themselves, they’re very involved in some community wherever it is. Are they involved in all these communities? You can see their involvement there. It shows you a lot about their character and what they’re doing. So I think along the profile of these platforms for me is not enough. I want to see a presence across the internet. What have they done? Not just references which might look nice but what do they do in their daily action online? This tells a lot about the story, a lot about the people and their background. And you can separate practically who’s more interesting and less.
Lisette: Yeah, agreed. It’s sort of a two-edged sword. There are some people that don’t want to have such a presence online but are doing great work but they don’t want to be online so much, and then there’s those of us that’s everywhere.
Christian: Exactly. Yeah. I think many people who are not very visible so it makes it difficult. I think most of them, they focus on their presence or their portfolio on these platforms, and then it’s difficult because they’re so many references, it’s difficult to find out and you really have to try it out, test in a project, and you have to work together. And to me, it’s just very interesting there are many factors that play in there. I think it’s experience after a while. I don’t know how it is for you but you could kind of find our top people into act when it comes to agreement quite quickly how they rely on these on agreement, and what do they need to emphasize on trust in between, of if they need to have contracts and stuff like that. You can see how people interact for experience and you can see how you can work together.
Lisette: Yeah, reputation goes a long way on the internet, that’s for sure.
Christian: Yeah, yeah.
Lisette: So let’s talk about We Thinq. I think it’s a super interesting product. Let’s talk about what it does and how you got started with this.
Christian: Well, I got started with it because I worked in an organization for five years doing knowledge management and lots about internet. And yeah, I saw the potential. At that time, it was called Web 2.0. Then it started with social media. But I saw the power of what it brings to employees in terms of communications. When we talk about people coming to organizations, it’s supposed to be [inaudible—6:43] efficient, works up responsible. But then the logic of organization is still very much top down hierarchical. Decision making is at the top and employees are very often frustrated that things just don’t turn out that they’re supposed to be. They really have a hard time to communicate to each other and work with each other. How we do it now and many do over the internet kind of like openly like Open Source software or whatever project. So I saw that sort of potential but I realized that using various different tools, there are many out there, but most are quite complicated. And we’re coming now to a time where I think platforms diversify for various different purposes. There’s just not one tool for everything. You can use Facebook for everything now. I think that we’re realizing now like there are so many different needs and so many different approaches we can take to online collaboration. And each approach need different types of platforms, different methodologies and around open and social innovation. If you really want to get groups engaged for a common goal, for a common cause for example an organization saving the use of paper, environmental cause whatever, you can come up with a quick tool to just throw in ideas. It’s very easy to do that of course. But what we found out is that’s where motivation came in to keep a lot what we think. You need a bit of a methodology or process to get people involved, and to come from any idea to really develop it to something meaningful that you actually have impact and you can get the best idea of who and then influence something meaningful.
Lisette: So you said something that I had to write down. It was innovation methodology. I know this is a big question so I’ll start by saying that, but what is the methodology for innovation in an organization?
Christian: Well I think there are different approaches to it. But first of all, the most important is to focus on people and country. It’s like providing the right ecosystem culture that people can share ideas and develop on ideas. And that’s where we come into the set of questions. These tools, social media or whatever [inaudible—8:58] which allow you to create these things that you can record sounds together in organizations. You can work together on ideas and yeah, independent of the hierarchies really that all people who have expertise can work together on it. And what we realized is by just throwing the ideas in, that’s awesome but it’s use case, throwing some ideas in, then comes the juries, the managers say “That one is the best, we’re going to do it.” And often that’s enough. It’s also not using the full power of online collaboration. What is interesting is once the ideas are in, then the chief of staff [inaudible—9:35] about the ideas, refining them, optimizing them, thinking about them from different angles. That’s where the whole kind of energy comes into it. And there are things we find out that really need a kind of methodology can help in twisting a platform the way that people can really go to such steps to come up with a rough idea to really meaningful and sustainable idea to implement. That’s what I’m talking about methodology.
Lisette: So it sounds awesome. So it sounds like what we say, and correct me if I’m wrong, that anybody in an organization or group, whoever, whoever’s using it, it’s like idea management. So you can throw in your ideas into maybe a pool and then people vote and discuss and choose and optimize. Am I getting it right?
Christian: Yes. Yes, that’s it. Although I think we’re moving away from the concept of management. It’s like you can see this illusion that you can play kind of manage, codify knowledge. You have this kind of artifact of ideas and you can of manage. You move them around for the same people. So I think when we talk about Open Social Innovations, open, we mean that it’s open, it’s fully flourishing, flying around in an organization so people can actually tap in or tap out, whatever they want that they can engage, however they’re interested in. And social, we mean that they really interact, that they’re highly collaborated on it. They’re really interested to make the ideas better, to work on something. And that’s management. That’s in contrary. That means that management lets the free flow of people just develop, just providing the ecosystem that people can really [inaudible—11:21] some stuff, that they can really yeah flourish around and [inaudible—11 :25].
Lisette: I love that you take the word management out of it because you’re right actually. With this kind of thing, how can you possibly manage like this pool of ideas and creativity? You’re right. It’s totally the wrong word for it.
Christian: Right, because at the end, you have to manage it because you have to decide which idea you’re going to do and which you’re going to implement and that needs resource and stuff like that. So you’re also pretty right. You need that kind of management part of it but maybe in the beginning, it’s more free-floating and it’s very important too.
Lisette: Who are the kinds of people that are using this at the moment? I mean what organizations are coming to you right now? And why are they?
Christian: [Inaudible—12:12] ideas is competitions. [Inaudible—12:14] and stuff like that whichever is popular at the moment where you come up with a theme or a challenge and then you use of course the online approach to reach out to that community. [Inaudible—12:24] it’s used for instance to look for energy saving in households using open data. But there’s a specific theme and then reach out to your wise specialists around household energy and what [inaudible—12:38] develop applications using open data to save energy. And then get a few weeks of process of collaborating all the ideas and you make on the weekend the best ideas. Most teams meet on a weekend to further collaborate, develop these ideas to create startups. [Inaudible—12:58] is when you go into an organizations and some wise inspirator inspiring top manager there deciding to ask the questions of the future and the whole organization shall develop and what is the potential of the organization to their own employees. And then I’m thinking like it was kind of a large organization, the video organization over 6,000 people, and they were thinking like maybe 2 or 300 people will participate. But at the end, like almost a thousand people participated.
Christian: And came in. But people were really like opening the door and people just flashed in. It was just like asking information organization widely with open question led to a lot of creativity and ideas to make things better or different.
Lisette: Wow! That’s really inspiring I think to hear that that many people wanted to voice and participate, and improve. I mean when you get that kind of response, I would think as an organization, regardless of what the response is, like that kind of engagement is really special, it sounds like.
Christian: Yes, I think it is. And it’s I think the philosophy behind we just sort of [inaudible—14:08] believing in the process, this horizontal process, that I think that we believe that every person in the organization, there’s a lot of creativity and energy to find ideas and to make things different and better. And I think that just the way of asking it and providing the right culture ecosystem, we let the people flourish with these ideas.
Lisette: Yes, I heard at a conference recently, somebody said most people start a job totally inspired and enthusiastic, and it’s really the job of the managers to not demotivate the employee. I mean you start motivated. You don’t start demotivated so it’s usually the company culture, something that demotivates people to participate and engage less and less. So that seems to be the case. I mean it’s showing the case with what you’re saying.
Lisette: So what is hard about doing this online?
Christian: I mean this is [inaudible—15:01], right? There’s a management who decides to do such a process I mean if you do it entirely. You have to be open. And to let the room open for all kinds of ideas or feedback because there could be also negative feedback, right? I mean sometimes we have to deal with positive feedback or ideas not always positive for things. There are always losers and winners, right, stuff like that.
Christian: So you need quite an openness [inaudible—15:31] for management and that as well are forgiven. They want to be on top of the ideas, they want to be on top of the decisions in these open innovations [inaudible—15:43] you want to call it. You don’t necessarily know the end before. You don’t necessarily know where it develops to, what are the best ideas, and what are the consequences of it. So that makes it difficult. Of course this is the whole part of open collaborations. I think we need a lot of time thinking in that people are willing to accepts these types of processes.
Lisette: When I interviewed Ericson, they said and they have the innovation management system idea boxes, and Magnus Carlson said that there was an age gap between the people that wanted to contribute, and that was the older generation wanted to keep their ideas secret because they were afraid that either somebody would steal them or that somebody would make fun of them, that was usually most of the case; whereas the younger generation was like “I have 100 ideas. Take them all. Just pick the one that’s best. Here’s a100 things” because they’re already used to sharing. Do you see that on your platform or do you see any sort of generational gap between the people that are comfortable with this kind of system?
Christian: That’s a good question. I think in general, I’m highly skeptical about this generational gap to be honest because I’ve seen extremely well advanced internet friendly elderly and young people who are really skeptics and distanced from the internet, so I’ve seen it across the generations. But I think the younger generation, I think they’re really expecting the kind of transparency. They go in organizations for them and absolutely, they’re just thinking that that should be normal that it has to be transparent and somehow horizontal, a kind of they don’t accept anymore these kind of hierarchies and top-down approaches. They think this is not logical to what was said before” something like these statements. And I think the older generations, they just [inaudible—17:43] boss, and I think we have this strong kind of force especially to the internet in terms of collaboration which is kind of sneaking into organizations now which many thought would never happen but we kind of see it and it’s going to happen now, and I can see many signs of it. But in terms of using it itself, I’ve seen it across the generations. I’ve seen older who are really super interested and they’re free to share ideas, younger and vise versa, so I’m not sure about that.
Lisette: Yeah, I was just curious if there was any sort of group that was more resistant to using it than others. But sounds like it’s the managers than anybody. And is it just ego with the managers? What’s getting in the way?
Christian: Well, I think we have to learn a lot. I mean technology takes pretty a long time to sink in, right? There’s this saying, I don’t know who said it to be honest like technology needs about 30 years to really sink in like email now is almost 30 years old. And everybody is really familiar with email and sms pretty much. But often collaboration is way more complex moving I think on these platforms. It will take more time. We’re finding now out and talking about the methodology. To an extent, it has to be transparent. People have to have trust in it. You can do a lot online but there’s also a lot of difficulties [inaudible—19:08]. You cannot just see the person, you cannot talk to the person to the face. In the organizations, you can see the person at lunch. But normally, you’re not. So there are also obstacles online. I think we have to learn and we have to find the right means and measures to gain trust in these open innovation processes. And then this will make it much easier to kind of put the obstacles away. What I can definitely see, and I’m also involved in citizens participation projects, always these people who say, people are just criticizing and they’re saying all these negative things, and I’ve worked in processes with such groups anonymously who don’t even know each other publicly. And if you really are on a topic which people are concerned about, let’s say it’s important, if it’s a topic they’re interested about, and this is very important also whichever context you do this, then people are constructive, they’re very constructive. They’re really dealing on the topic and there is so little negative speak or destructive style of. And there’s really a lot of positive intrinsic motivation to convince people to do things. I’ve seen really long conversations online to really work together even if you’re in different opinions. But it is important that it’s really something that matters to people.
Lisette: Right. People really have to care about the topic and want to make it better. And yeah, I can imagine. And what’s the biggest resistance that you’re getting to taking We Thinq into an organization. Where do you guys hit the resistance if any?
Christian: There is of course a lot of resistance because you’re offering a platform which as I said opens wider space to let people collaborate openly, discuss everything more or less. It’s unrestricted in a sense. Not every organization is ready for it. I heard the other day, just an organization in the internet that they have no commenting system and somebody commented and the communication department called him up and said, “Why did you comment on the topic?” This is still usual. This is still happening. So if you open up the room for such an open platform where people in an organization talk about everything, let out their opinion, it’s very constructive. People are just way too afraid of it. In my experience is mostly very constructive. Then you need, especially management who dare, talk more and to really want to experiment on it. I think you gain a lot out of it so it’s worth the effort.
Lisette: How do you convince people if you have a manager maybe who’s hesitant to try but they’re kind of curious, how do you build trust in the outcome of the platform for people so that they can take that next step?
Christian: Well I think you gain a lot. You gain a lot. You gain the sympathy and the ownership of people. I’ll give you an example. We worked with one organization we did something totally different. They wanted to develop a new policy on an issue. A typical process in an organization, you develop a policy, you make normally a draft of the policy, and then you send it out by email, and you say like “Please give some feedback also. Send it back to me and then I’m going to make the final version from top management.” And [inaudible—22:36]. So what we did is we put this draft on the platform for people and then sent invitations out to over 200 people, and they could either comment it on the draft on each of the issues or they could add new additional points on the policy which they thought would be very important. And then you had different public transparent conversations about different policy issues. And some participants decide, “Well I think some important part is missing” so they edit it. And then [inaudible—23:10] two weeks and interesting discussions around various issues, then they made a few days of prior to authorization where they can both adopt the most important parts. And then the initiator, the department manager or the team, they wrote together the new draft of the policy, and out of all these feedback and conversations, and they had a new version of the policy, and it got laterally accepted. And you have now a complete different ownership of that piece because they were all involved in the discussion. And the use advantage of the initiator is also that he can always say now, “Well, if you are unhappy, well we did three weeks process. Everybody was able to speak.” But the [inaudible—23:55] is very highly participative process. And this policy will probably be in place for many years to come so I think this is quite an investment but it’s well worth the effort. And it’s totally different if you’re sending it to all of the participants by email and you receiving the feedback. You’re totally missing out the whole conversation around it. And there were many synergies and interesting aspects people haven’t thought about that it’s another win-win.
Lisette: Just the idea that you can have over 200 people contributing, editing, and having conversations around one document I think is so cool. I mean in the old days just five years ago, you would be sending a Word document like you said, emailing it back and forth, and with the highlighting.
Lisette: And sort of this horrible, horrible way. And now, just having the conversation about something, that sounds really exciting.
Christian: And some people, they would say you could do it in a wiki and so on which is totally true but this is a good example which take a wiki, the problem is like you need a very advanced kind of internet constantly. Actually, there are people who are able to work collaboratively on a wiki document. This is possible but I think it’s only possible if people who are really much advanced into open collaboration, they are totally open that other people just erase content. So I think in this [inaudible—25:16] methodology, you have to find the right methodology to take all of the group together that people who are not so much into internet who are resistant to it, welcome them all, embrace them all. Find the right methodology they can all contribute and feel comfortable about the process, make it transparent, and then develop together something such as a policy.
Lisette: Yeah. I have to say my wiki experience sounds the same as yours. I’m a wiki lover. I created more wikis myself than everybody else in the last company I worked in all put together. So I was a huge lover. And you’re right. For some reason, it just takes a more sophisticated crowd of people that gravitate towards the wiki in that type of work. So yeah, sometimes it’s the perfect tool but if nobody uses it so it’s not the perfect tool, so you have to move on.
Christian: Yeah. Yup.
Lisette: What about security issues because I run into security issues a lot, companies that say, “We can’t turn on our videos. We can’t talk to each other. The information has to be note. It can’t go off our server,” how do you deal with security issues or do you deal with these kind of security issues at all?
Christian: Yes. Of course we are a software service so you can just book us and subscribe and book an instance or an account in idea space or anything and start it. And it depends of course very much on the topic, right? If it’s about papers [inaudible—26:37] confidential really much a topic, but if it’s internal things management, it’s a totally different matter. So yes, I think there is an understanding that anywhere most of the stuff moves to the cloud, and there are really good mechanism now to protect data, but it depends very much on the topic. If it’s a very confidential topic, you might have to really move the silo directly to the [inaudible—27:04] and stuff like that. There are different measures to take to secure the data and so on. But of the topics around open socialization that’s perceived very open, they’re very free floating and then in these conversations, you not necessarily address such confidential topics. You might have certain issues if you come really into deep idea competitions, stuff like this, but you have to find different solutions.
Lisette: Okay. That’s just something I run into and it’s a hard question to answer sometimes. They say, “My organization doesn’t let me turn on video” and I think “Oh, geez, you should fight the organization maybe.” Anyway, you got advice.
Christian: What I’m saying actually is of course if this is an issue for an organization to want to protect themselves, but nowadays, more and more organizations don’t work in this isolated silo themselves. And it [inaudible—28:02] topic of remote work. Organizations obviously use remote networks because you have stakeholders, you have partners, you work in so many different settings with outsiders and you always have to work, I mean you will in the future work more intensively online with them. So you cannot attack these technology one silo or an organization. You will have to have a lot of reaches out there to get people into it. So there will be anyway, we need more different solutions.
Lisette: Yeah, yeah. I think the days of the silos are quickly coming to an end. The people that are all working in the same building just doesn’t seem, at least I hope. I’m so biased though. It’s hard for me to be objective at all about these things. But for people who are just starting out, what advice would you give them, for either working remotely or doing these ideas innovation in their companies? What would be the first thing that people want to check this out? What would they do? How would they prepare themselves?
Christian: I think the most important thing is if you are really motivated to work with your colleagues and you work on something and you make a very truly new and different experience to work open and collaboratively with your colleagues even though tell you over the internet doesn’t really work, I can tell you they really need the measures to work really interestingly and tackle any project. What you need to know, what you have to figure out is what is the right and intriguing topic. It has to be something that is a burning issue, that’s something people really want to talk about and find a solution. And of course, you have to convince the top management also that they say “Yes, we’re going to invest something into it” because you have to invest time to facilitate the process and you have to invest of course resources to implement some of the solutions because then otherwise, the discussion process leads to nothing and people will be disappointed so that’s important. But I can ensure you it’s a truly empowering effect in this media organization I’ve worked with, people were just, I mean the management was actually surprised. There were so many ideas coming in that they had really issues and problems [inaudible—30:16] them because there was just so much flying around suddenly, they were surprised. And that’s often what happens. They will say, “Oh, there are so many ideas coming in.” And then suddenly, there’s so much more that they expect. So they underestimate the creativity of their employees.
Lisette: It’s a great problem to have to me.
Lisette: Like a great like too many idea, oh no! I mean I’d rather work with that than the opposite, that’s for sure. That’s for sure.
Lisette: What are some of your favorite tools that you use for working with your colleagues?
Christian: So remote work, as I said in the beginning, I use to work with a lot of tools. And my lesson learned is to really kind of minimize it to very few ones. So I work now with project management tools from teamwork. It’s really nice although it has certain logic. I don’t care anymore whether it has this or that logic. I try to move my head around how it could work for us. And it’s really good. What I really like is [inaudible—31:22]. So I met a lot of [inauidible—31:26] a lot of issues to this tool to be an example to a more precise if comments come up on our blog, automatically becomes a ticket, and our project management platform to my colleagues so they answer it. So I’m trying to automate a lot of processes so we don’t have to do it manually all the time. But we have one entrance to all, one kind of where we all go in and we all see what’s happening at the moment, even though if it’s something missing, I don’t try to exert with just another new thing and then another new thing here. I’m trying to make the best out of one. That’s my lessons learned that I really like.
Lisette: So to minimize the number of tools that you simplify and minimize the number of tools that you use.
Christian: Yes, absolutely. I’m more nowadays doing the remote work into whatever you like. This month is SOP, standard operating procedures. I really like that. That helps us a lot because in remote work, you can’t talk and it’s important to have calls and to talk with each other. But of course, you don’t have that advantage to be in one office where you just lean over and talk about an issue. So you have to compensate this that you have to ask all the time. So standard operating procedure for how to really to try to codify as best as possible and isolate processes so that everybody knows how it works, that somebody’s sick, somebody often takes over, and to optimize this overtime. So yeah, that things work much easier. I think that it helps the things to work much easier remotely.
Lisette: You said you work with people in London, in the Far East, and in the US so I have to ask how do you deal with time zones and issues around time zone on your team? Everybody seems to be struggling with it.
Christian: Yes, it is for us.
Lisette: Also, yeah. I haven’t found an answer for that yet. Somebody’s going to be up late, somebody’s going to get up early.
Lisette: There’s just no other way.
Christian: And there’s sunlight changing something. It’s happening so it’s tricky. I think we’re trying differentiating roles and not meeting altogether. And technology people just meet up one time so not too people at once will have to meet which sometimes makes it easier because of time zones. That’s one way to do it to separate the issues. And as I said, SOP, at least to try to codify, to write down a lot of stuff makes it possible that we don’t have to talk on calls so much about the issues all the time. So when there’s issue again rising up, you really try at the end of the call to talk about “So how was that solved and how can we kind of avoid that next time? Let’s look if we already a procedure for it,” and then write it down. So the goal is in the end of the call, you also have some time to socially talk. It’s not always problem solving or something like this. It’s also you put the beast of burden away more and more and also have time to talk about nice things in between which is very important in remote work.
Lisette: Right. We can really be business, business, business.
Lisette: Kids, and sports.
Christian: Exactly, that’s very important to talk about as well.
Lisette: Yeah, so making time for that. Great advice. So final question, we’re reaching the end. I already see myself going over but you have so many interesting things, I’ve been taking serious notes as we’ve been talking.
Christian: Okay. Good to know.
Lisette: Which is if people want to learn more about you and get in touch with you about We Thinq, what are the best ways of finding more information and getting in touch?
Christian: I think our blog because we really for almost two years now really make a lot of effort to write on our blog at Wethinq.com and our blog. We really share a lot of resources across the web about open social innovations. It’s [inaudible—35:30]. We try to make meaning out of it. What does it really mean? What is behind it? And we share a lot of resource links into the web. What’s out there? What could you do with it? And I think that’s really the best place to look with what we’re doing and yeah.
Lisette: Great! The We Thinq blog, I’ll put that in the show notes for people to see.
Christian: Thank you.
Lisette: Is there anything else that I didn’t cover or I didn’t ask that you hoped I did?
Christian: That’s really interesting. I really liked it myself.
Lisette: Okay, good. Great. Well then, until next time everybody! be powerful!