Name: Peter Wilson
Headquarters: Brisbane, Australia
Superpower: Connecting Australia and the Philippines
Peter Wilson is the managing director of KIStaffing, a company that connects Australian businesses with talent in the Philippines. We discuss why the Philippines and Australia are so compatible and what the hiring and onboarding process looks like for an offshore team. Peter also shares some great advice for companies who are just starting their journey with hiring offshore staff.
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Lisette: Great, and we’re live. So, welcome everybody to another remote interview. My name is Lisette and I’m interviewing people and companies who are doing great things remotely and today on the line I have Peter Wilson from Brisbane, Australia. I hope I said Brisbane right.
Peter: [unintelligible – 00:18].
Lisette: So in America, it’s Brisbane but I know in Australia it’s Brisbane and, Peter, you’re the managing director at Kinetic Innovative Staffing and when I looked at the website, it said it helped business utilise the benefits of offshoring and outsourcing in the Philippines. So I’m assuming you’re connecting businesses in Australia to businesses or to workers in the Philippines. But before we get into all of that, let me start with the first question because we’ll get into all of that. What does your virtual office look like? What do you need to get your work done?
Peter: Well, this is it, basically. So, this is where I work from most of the time but obviously being remote and virtual, it does mean that [unintelligible – 01:01] so when I do that, I have the office with me. So I’m the only person in Australia. We have some management staff in the Philippines and in recruits and operations people and then basically we provide, as you said, connections [from] Australian clients to connect with Filipinos, the Filipino workforce. So we obviously use technology for that and a virtual office is all we need to do that successfully.
Lisette: So why the Philippines?
Peter: Well, Australia is the same time zone as the Phillipines. The Philippines has a very large work force, English-speaking employees. It’s 120 million people in the Philippines. Great work ethic, loyal, hardworking, some great skills, so most of our clients come to us initially the costs sorts of things but they very quickly realise that it’s not just about costs. It’s actually about the access to talent and skills as well.
Lisette: I was going to ask actually.
Peter: [unintelligible – 02:06]. I guess, you know, over the years, America probably started this type of thing in the Philippines but the problem with Filipinos working for American clients is the fact they have to work basically the graveyard shift overnight if they want to align themselves with the daytime in the US. So we generally have a bit of a competitive advantage in terms of attracting good quality staff [who] work the day time shift for Australian clients and the other thing I guess we do which is a little bit different, so the [unintelligible – 02:38] industry, which is the business process outsourcing industry in the Philippines isn’t new but there’s not too many of us that are doing it where we allow our staff to work from home in the Philippines and, again, I think that’s a big competitive advantage for us because employees in the Philippines want to be able to avoid the traffic, the traffic’s horrendous in places like Manila, and being able to work from home. It gives them [unintelligible – 03:01] spend a little bit more time with the family.
Lisette: Interesting. So there’s a benefit then for both sides, one in that Australian businesses can save on cost, probably significant cost by finding talent in the Philippines, and then in the Philippines, you can avoid the commute, work from home, spending more time with your family. On that side…
Peter: [unintelligible – 03:23].
Lisette: Right and then you [went big] there. Interesting.
Lisette: I can imagine that the time zone is a really big advantage actually because who wants to work the graveyard shift? I mean, there’s very few.
Peter: Exactly and, look, I guess, again from an Australian perspective, it’s a significant advantage in that, you know, the Americans probably have spent a lot of money, invested a lot of money in terms of training staff in terms of [unintelligible – 03:49]. You know, the ability to be able to work from home in the day is a big attractor for us to attract good quality staff and that’s what our clients are looking for here in Australia.
Lisette: So how does it work then if somebody…can you give me an idea of what the hiring process looks like? What does somebody go through when they’re looking for talent?
Peter: [unintelligible – 04:12]. It’s actually very simple and it’s very low risk and it’s not much different to what I’d imagine you would go through in US or Australia in terms of the typical local recruitment process. So, generally, a client will come to us considering how to do this. We’ll ask them for a copy [of a position description] for a role. We’ll then go through a recruitment process in the Philippines. So that means we’ll be looking at [our database – unintelligible 04:36] 4 million employees in it, so very large pool of talent. We will also advertise in the Philippines and then we present our clients with a short list of potential applicants. We’ll ask our clients to then review the short list. We then [shift to] interviews generally using this type of technology, interviewing the candidates face to face and, you know, just go through the traditional recruitment process. [A lot of the roles] we do recommend a lot of testing as well. So, for example, [today] we’re working on an architectural role for an architectural firm in Sydney and they’re looking for drafting top staff. So, they’ve given us a test for them to do. So it’s part of the recruitment process. We ask the candidates to complete the tests. That’s actually something we try [unintelligible – 05:28] in terms of testing. But yeah, the recruitment process is very simple and straightforward, very similar to the process you expect, you know, [unintelligible – 05:37] in the US. Ultimately, if we go through the process and they find someone they like, then we make the candidates an offer in Philippines. If they’re working, they generally have to give their existing employer a notice and then, through that [unintelligible – 05:53] 30-day notice, we just make sure the candidate’s all set up at home [unintelligible – 05:57], you know, things like making sure they have a second monitor, you know, a good quality headset, check the internet speed and connection. You know, the Philippines isn’t a first world country when it comes to internet speed so we do make sure they all have a second backup internet connection.
Lisette: Oh yeah?
Peter: [unintelligible – 06:17]. Yeah. We think that’s important. Look, we don’t guarantee a 100% [unintelligible – 06:23] all day but we do have tools to help manage time sheets and if, for example, someone wants to lose half an hour during the day because of the internet [unintelligible – 06:33]. We have very few problems. Actually, when we first started, [unintelligible – 06:38].
Peter: [unintelligible – 06:44].
Lisette: You have a lot of great what? I’m sorry to interrupt.
Peter: So we have a lot of great happy clients. We tend to say to our clients, particularly those that haven’t done this before. A lot of them come to us, they’re very excited [unintelligible – 06:57] money, which ultimately they will do over a period of time but rather than moving a whole team of people [unintelligible – 07:07] just start with one person. So we just say, just start with one and then maybe after a few months, the business then would be ready to think [unintelligible – 07:18] second and third onwards, you know, because it’s important for the local business here to get familiar with how to manage and work with remote staff, not that it’s difficult but it can obviously mean that businesses need to change their processes slightly and we work, really, it’s important for us to get, you know, we want to make sure that it’s successful, the business. So there’s a couple of things we recommend. So, in the business itself, identifying someone who’s going to be like a champion to make this work, someone that’s going to buddy up with the person that’s working in the Philippines, you know, make it part of their [unintelligible – 07:54] to make this successful [over six months], so get them involved in the recruitment process, get them involved in the selection process [unintelligible – 08:02] and then they take ownership of it. So, as you can imagine, people feel a little bit threatened by offshoring but, having said that, I’m not really aware of too many [unintelligible – 08:17]. It’s mostly businesses that want to grow, that want to add depth to their pool of skills and resources of the business. It allows them, the local workforce, to develop their local workforce further and their local workforce can then focus more on business development side of things rather than the transaction side of business.
Peter: So it can work [unintelligible – 08:37].
Lisette: So what are the things then that businesses struggle with when they first start working with an offshore team? What are the common things that you see?
Peter: Look, I think as long as they do identify someone in the business that’s going to take some ownership of making this work in the Philippines, we have fairly few problems. What would be some problems? I think, look, there’s a whole heap of different things to overcome the problems though so as many [unintelligible – 09:17] face to face type meetings. We recommend trying to catch up with a staff member every day face to face, [unintelligible – 09:21] relationship with the staff member. Treat them as though they’re one of your local employees, get them involved as much as possible, you know. We recommend, you know, for example, let’s say you have a six-month [unintelligible – 09:36] staff meeting [unintelligible – 09:38] in the office in the US [or] Australia. We recommend to get them involved, have a webcam up, get them involved in the staff meeting, get them to participate, get them involved in your [unintelligible – 09:46] process. We’ve got some clients who do it really well, like, for example, the first…some of our clients, for example, the first day the staff member starts, they walk them around the office on an iPad [unintelligible – 10:00] introduce them to the [unintelligible – 10:02] warehouse, the factory, or the people on the floor, you know. Really embrace it as part of their business and culture. So, the ones that do it well really don’t have any problems. I guess it’s the ones that really…the ones that probably don’t do it as successfully would be the ones that…see them as being a contractor or just external resource and don’t really try to [unintelligible – 10:25], you know, treat them as a full time employee.
Lisette: I really like the idea of introducing them via the iPad, taking them around the office and actually introducing…that’s a nice idea.
Peter: That same company, as you’re probably aware, you can set up groups on Skype. So you can have a group of people in the same, you know, chat, if you like. So all of their staff in the Philippines and then also their local team are all in that same sort of chat sort of environment, so not necessarily just taking about work but also, you know, about what they do on the weekend and try to get some benefits out of this cultural exchange that can be really rewarding and rich. So, you know, talk about the Philippines, teach them a bit about the Philippines, teach them a bit about Australia, Australian football, you know, as much as possible. Try to encourage that interaction between the [unintelligible – 11:27].
Lisette: Are there strong cultural differences? What are the cultural differences, I should ask, between Philippines and Australia? That’s always an interesting question. Always ask about, how do I [deal] with culture? But I’m curious. What are the stereotypes?
Peter: Yeah. Look, Australia’s a very multi-cultural society as it is so I couldn’t really describe what a typical Australian is. We’re a mixture of people from all around the world and we have a lot of Filipinos that actually work here in Australia. Philippines, you know, they’re culturally…I guess they’ve had a lot of influence from the US. [unintelligible – 12:12] had a very big presence in the Philippines up until recently. They’re culturally pretty much aligned, I guess, to the western type culture. English is a second language but, you know, middle class, skilled sort of work force people are generally very good at English as [unintelligible – 12:34]. Generally, they have an American accent, not an Australian accent so…
Peter: [unintelligible – 12:41] we won’t hold that against them.
Lisette: That’s funny. So what kind of management techniques do you generally use? I mean, because you said that managing somebody offshore is slightly different than managing somebody in the office and, of course, I can imagine of course that’s true. So what are the different management styles and techniques that you guys use, or that the companies use, I suppose, because you’re just connecting people and then…
Peter: Yeah. [unintelligible – 13:12] isn’t just the upfront recruitment. We sort of help with retention as well. So, [unintelligible – 13:19] in the Philippines so we like our clients to see us as being an HR department in the Philippines so it kind of helps because our local team up there in the Philippines, if someone’s feeling a little bit unloved one day, it might be that the local contact here in Australia was [being] a little busy with work so they might think, you know, they might wonder whether they’re doing a good job or not and Filipinos tend to be less, probably less direct than Australians [unintelligible – 13:50] cultural difference, so they may not feel as comfortable in raising an issue with, say, their Australian counterpart. So, being able to raise that via a Philippine based team [unintelligible – 14:02] I can speak to the clients about it. It can certainly help with retention. It might be that they’re doing such a great job that the client doesn’t feel the need to be talking to them [via that] regular basis. But, you know, in terms of qualities of the client, I think the ones that work really well are the ones where people embrace this part of their business and they don’t see it as a threat, they see it as an opportunity, and typically it can be from the top-down. So, [unintelligible – 14:32] I was talking about before with walking around with on iPad through the office, that’s actually the managing director that’s really been embracing it and doing that. So, I think some of the people that are willing to think about things differently, if there [is] little issues in terms of working with people remotely [unintelligible – 14:53] as a problem but actually [unintelligible – 14:57] solutions might be [unintelligible – 14:59] the problems, whether it’s may be changing the technology they’re using or slightly changing the way they do their processes in the office but it’s generally not much that’s required to make it work. Yes, the people that are open to it, they don’t feel threatened by it that [unintelligible – 15:17] can also see it as enhancing their careers because there’s no question the technology is rapidly evolving and making all this possible in terms of dealing with people remotely. So, I think having in your resume the fact that you’ve got these skills to actually manage and work with people remotely is actually a great thing. So, for people that are lucky enough to have the opportunity to work with [unintelligible – 15:41] businesses, I think it’s really great for their career [unintelligible – 15:45] it’s happening more and more.
Peter: I mean, my 15-year old son, for example, playing games on the computer at night, [hear] him have maybe 60 sort of cyber friends online playing together [unintelligible – 16:03] all over the world and for them, as they come through in their careers, it’s going to be something which is just second nature to them.
Lisette: Yeah, I totally…I think the same. It’s like when kids….when I see kids and the video game that they’re playing and who they’re collaborating with and just the open space programming world in particular, it really is going to be second nature. They’re going to think like, “What do you mean? Of course I’m going to collaborate with people all over the world.” So I have to ask about one thing that I saw on the website and I think a couple of blog articles, or maybe it was some of the videos that I was watching to prepare for this interview, which is the screenshots and keystroke monitoring, and I ask because it’s controversial. Some people are all for it and some people think like they’re totally against it. So I want to ask, when does that get used? Does that get used all the time? How do people…like I know if somebody were monitoring me, I would feel very self-conscious about that, you know, because I do Facebook as much as the next person. So how does it work?
Peter: Yeah. Yeah. Look, I guess, it’s something that it’s a third party product that we offer to our clients simply because the people that are familiar with having a staff member sitting in their office all day, it’s a big step for them to potentially have people working outside the office and having them work in another country outside the office. I guess it helps manage their fear, you know, about is the person working for me? Are they just doing my work? Are they working for other people at the same time? When we speak to candidates [unintelligible – 17:35] in initial conversations, we raise it with them. We say, “Look, if you are successful in the trial, these are the sorts of things that you are going to be able…if you want to proceed [unintelligible – 17:48] you have to accept,” and normally most people do realise that they do need to [be provided] transparency and visibility to their employer. [unintelligible – 17:58] having the ability to walk past [a screen in the office], if you like, from time to time. We very rarely…in fact, I can’t remember any client ever ring us up and [unintelligible – 18:11]. You know, it really doesn’t happen. It’s mostly used for the time-sheeting so actually tracking 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, just making sure they [unintelligible – 18:23] correct projects and so on. It’s a good point. Often, we’re speaking to clients, you know, the clients say to us, “Gee, we wish we could use this here with our on-shore staff,” but [unintelligible – 18:39], that’s not going to happen.
Lisette: Right. I can imagine though that it is a tool for alleviating fear for people who are first going offshoring so that they can understand…I’ve actually had people say before that they’ve used video. For example, they have the video on when they’re working so that people can actually see them and I think oh that’s simulating what it’s like to be in the office together. So it’s maybe just a different form of that. So, I can understand.
Peter: In fact, I was just speaking to a client today and actually quite often I would suggest that clients need to think about putting a webcam up in their office in Australia in a public space so that, you know, if their employees in the Philippines want to [unintelligible – 19:27] or see what’s going on in the office, they can dial in remotely into a remote webcam and get a view of what’s happening in the open space [at] the office [so it will] get more involved.
Lisette: Yeah. I’ve seen a number of companies do that actually. Sorry?
Peter: [unintelligible – 19:43] It can work both ways in terms of developing that relationship.
Lisette: Yeah. I’ve seen a number of companies do that and at first it sounds really Big Brother but then when you see it in action, you can see actually it’s a very team building, bonding experience just to be able to see each other like that. So I’m all for the webcams actually. So…interesting. So, what other tools…I mean, are there a specific set of tools that you recommend that people use or is it different by each client? How does that work?
Peter: Generally, each client will have their own setup. So, you know, someone might be a sort of a Google Apps type business and others may be Microsoft Office business, so really just depends on their existing infrastructure and the types of [accounting] packages or [ERP] systems they’re using. You know, we generally obviously…they need to have [somebody] to collaborate so they need to have [unintelligible – 20:40] Skype or Zoom or Google Hangouts of course but, you know, in terms of the other systems [unintelligible – 20:47]. It really does depend on the client individually in terms of what technology they’ve got set up.
Lisette: Okay and I’m…you also have 4 million candidates in the database. That’s a lot of candidates and I’m guessing it spans a breadth of different kinds of skills too so it’s not just programmers, it’s, like you said, designers and everybody.
Peter: Accountants. Yeah, I mean, there’s…this particular database is a public database for recruiters. So if you have a [unintelligible – 21:33] license in the Philippines, you can access it but it’s a little bit different [unintelligible – 21:38] in US but in Australia, it’s more employers will advertise the people, you know, on various online job [unintelligible – 21:46] and then [unintelligible – 21:47]. I guess it’s not dissimilar to LinkedIn in that [unintelligible – 21:51], you know, people then will access those LinkedIn resumes to find people for potential roles. So, that particular database is really big in the Philippines with 4 million people in it and basically they all maintain their own resumes [unintelligible – 22:10]. So it does…it actually does…it means that, for example, if we get a position description for a role [unintelligible – 22:16] they’re wondering if we’ve got people with some really obscure type of software skill, you know, within a space of a couple of minutes, we can give them [unintelligible – 22:24], say, a thousand people [unintelligible – 22:27] with those types of skills in the Philippines. So, actually, when we do the…even if I’ve got clients that are talking to me [unintelligible – 22:37] from where I’m based now, I still try to recommend that we do the meeting when we’re doing that initial phase of talking about the opportunity [unintelligible – 22:47] go off shore. I will still try to do the meeting online and simply because I want to demonstrate to them a lot of the tools that I can use to make it successful ultimately [unintelligible – 22:58]. I generally get a couple of my own team in the Philippines online as well so they can meet them and helps answer the questions about can they speak English and, you know, things like that, [unintelligible – 23:08] even by showing them…so we’re using Zoom, which is the software we’re using now for this conversation. It’s got a fantastic feature where you can share your screen while you’re talking as well. So, not only can we see each other face to face and talk face to face but I could be, for example, I could pull out that database of 4 million people and we could do some collaborative searching of the databases and then the client gets excited about it and then we can move onto the next role [if] it’s in the market department, finance department, [unintelligible – 23:37] and very quickly they can get a feel for [unintelligible – 23:41]. So, you know, as I said, that’s part of the reason that even clients are within driving distance [unintelligible – 23:53] try to do that [unintelligible – 23:58] initial meetings online to be able to show them [unintelligible – 23:59].
Lisette: Interesting. I bet…I have the same experience in terms of when I give workshops to companies. I offer the workshop online but most companies…it’s still too weird for them to actually take a workshop online. So I do now a hybrid where we start in person and then we go online. They’re always completely blown away by how good it is when they go online because they haven’t seen the new video…I mean, video conferencing in the past has been notoriously painful. So…but I think people are really surprised by how far technology has come in the last five years and how many options there are now.
Peter: That’s right. I mean, you know, some people don’t even have a headset on their computer. So you ask them to do an online meeting and they think oh we can’t do an online meeting but, as you know, with this product like Zoom, for example, you can invite them to attend a video by computer and, at the same time, they can use their traditional mobile phone or office phone to call a number, a local number, [unintelligible – 24:58] Sydney for people to call. So we get them to call the Sydney [unintelligible – 25:04] number [unintelligible – 25:06] and, at the same time, we can share the screen to demonstrate all of those tools we’ve been discussing [unintelligible – 25:14] database, for example.
Lisette: Okay. So, a couple more questions. I have a question about personality types and people that you’ve…I mean, certainly you’ve come across people who think that they could do remote working but then they’re just not suited for it and what kind of personality types work and don’t work?
Peter: Yeah, I guess, that’s right. So, you know, I guess the benefit of going to an office is you do have that social environment so it’s not just business but you can go into lunch with your colleagues and, you know, getting that social interaction. So, I guess people that want that [unintelligible – 26:01] but when they, in our particular model anyway, when they offset that against the people that work from home not having to commute, a lot of the people that we actually get online would have commuted maybe 3 or 4 hours each way to get to the office.
Peter: [unintelligible – 26:14]. 3 and a half hours each way and it’s not commuting in an air-conditioned car in the Philippines. It’s getting a tricycle [unintelligible – 26:29] then lining up half an hour to actually get on the train or the bus and yeah so…but yeah so the people get distracted. You need to have a reasonably quiet area in your house to work productively. I still think, even though you’re working from home, you can get up and you can [unintelligible – 26:49] about your business. You can get dinner started. You can take a break outside, you know, go and have a chat to your neighbours, you know. It’s no real different in terms of how you can socialising in the office. You can socialise. You can have friends online, on Skype, or whatever, but you’ve got to have a reasonable [unintelligible – 27:06] to work remotely, I guess, without having a manager or supervisor breathing down your neck all the time but I think people tend to find other avenues to sort of satisfy those social needs and so on [unintelligible – 27:25] or throughout the day just using the tools I mentioned or whatever.
Lisette: I can imagine that with a nightmare commute, like 3 to 4 hours of being shoved in trains among so many people that finding a way to socialise would be the least of your concerns.
Lisette: I mean, that sounds like a really big problem in the Philippines is the traffic. That really sounds…like I know in major metropolitan areas in the US and even in the Netherlands, government has been asking people to shift their hours and using alternate…you know, coming in late or even earlier in order to minimise the traffic jams that are happening. So, sounds like it’s just really a problem in the Philippines. So, curious.
Peter: [unintelligible – 28:12]. There’s 20 million other people in Manila. That’s their capital city. They do shift workers [unintelligible – 28:20] because there is this significant pool of people that work, say, for the US. They work the graveyard shift and there’ll be people working the [unintelligible – 28:29] shift [unintelligible – 28:31] the UK but yeah, it’s horrendous. It’s horrendous in terms of [unintelligible – 28:35] public infrastructure [unintelligible – 28:39] trains and buses and [unintelligible – 28:40]. Everyone tries to get to work on the buses and then you [have] a little bit of rain [unintelligible – 28:43]. If it rains, you can add another hour to your trip [unintelligible – 28:49] working remotely in that sense [unintelligible – 28:53] advantage.
Lisette: I was like it’s a full…
Peter: [unintelligible – 28:55].
Lisette: Sorry? I was going to say it sounds like it’s a full-time job just commuting on some days. I mean…
Peter: Yeah. I certainly couldn’t do it. I wouldn’t be productive when I got to work if I had to commute [unintelligible – 29:08] those sorts of hours. The other thing is, I guess, when you’re not saying, okay, you’ve got to go to a particular location, you know, a particular place, [unintelligible – 29:16] can access resources all around the Philippines. So there are 120 million other people in the Philippines so we do have people in other islands in the Philippines. I think [unintelligible – 29:26] islands that make up the Philippines. Obviously there’s the main ones and we have staff [unintelligible – 29:35]. So it can help from a diversification perspective as well. So, you know, [unintelligible – 29:42] edge of the Pacific thing. They tend to get hit by a lot of typhoons and so on. So, you know, let’s say, for example, Manila got hit by a typhoon. [It’s very difficult for the staff to get to work – unintelligible 29:55]. So, if you’ve got staff, let’s say you’ve got [ten staff] in the office and none of those people can get in [unintelligible – 30:10] two or three lose their connections because of the typhoon, it’s not going to have disastrous consequences for the business. So I think [from a diversification perspective too, it’s a good thing].
Lisette: Yeah, absolutely. I can imagine, for a company, you’d want to have the processes in place to be able to work remotely, even if you didn’t need to…
Lisette: …so that when these things happen, your business doesn’t just shut down. I mean, you want to be able to keep going in as many situations as possible. So yeah, that’s a huge business incentive I’m sure. So, what’s…just a couple of last questions but for people who are just starting out in looking for offshore opportunities, what advice would you give them? What are some of the rookie mistakes people make?
Peter: Yeah, I think people try to do it too big too quickly. So no matter how big your business is, just start one. If you’ve got a bigger business, then maybe just start with one in each department. So start with one in marketing, one in finance, one in operations [unintelligible – 31:10] and then each of those departments…one of their goals is to actually make it successful within six months and then after six months, they can move onto a second and a third. So you’re doing it…rather than moving a whole team of people and then expecting it just to work [unintelligible – 31:27] I think is a big mistake [unintelligible – 31:30]. Yeah, so that’s probably one of them. What else? I think focusing on recruitment, so the recruitment phase is very important. [unintelligible – 31:40] get the right person so don’t rush that. Do as much testing as possible in relation to potential staff members.
Lisette: I really like that. So starting…
Peter: Having a buddy in the office, I think, is important too. So having just a sort of champion in the office, it’s going to, again, [has] the responsibility to be involved with the both upfront selection, recruitment process but then the ongoing development of that person and the transfer of knowledge to an extent to that person as well.
Lisette: I love it. So, starting small and don’t go crazy , start small and iterate and focus getting on the right people and having a champion or a buddy in the office that helps connect the person to the team. That’s really good advice, I think. Those are really good. So, last question which is if people want to find out more about you and about Kinetic Innovative Staffing, what’s the best place to…where’s the best place to go and what’s the best way to contact you?
Peter: Look, we love obviously for people to visit our website, so www.kistaffing.com. It has all our contact details online.
Lisette: And great videos and it’s a really nice looking website so…indeed easy to understand and navigate. So kistaffing.com, and I’ll also put that in the show notes so that people can find it. So, great. Well I really appreciate your time today. I know a lot of people are looking for offshoring resources. Clearly, it’s a lot of business incentive to do that, especially when you can save so much on cost and there’s these pools of talent that are looking for work. So…so, great. Thanks so much today for the time.
Peter: Thanks, Lisette. Nice to meet you.
Lisette: Alright, everybody. Until next time, be powerful.